this is a two-part request:

i'm leaning heavily toward yojimbo, after trying out various
competitors, especially one called "kit." so now, i'd like to
transfer some items from kit into yojimbo. but when i do, yojimbo
registers the date of *import* as the date *created*, which causes
associated documents (such as pdfs that all pertain to one project)
to appear out of order, when viewing by date. i often view by date so
i can quickly reference all of the most recent documents -- of
various types -- within any folder. but yojimbo's current behavior
prevents this. (of course, i'm referring to pre-existing documents,
such as pdfs, etc.) so i was hoping that yojimbo's date fields were
editable -- perhaps in the inspector window -- but alas, they are not.

hence, request #1: the ability to edit the creation and modification
dates.

IMHO, registering the date of *import*, as if it were the date of
creation, is simply incorrect. (the date that a pre-existing document
was imported into yojimbo seems completely irrelevant to me, as
opposed to, say, a note that is actually created within yojimbo.)

hence, request #2: yojimbo should inherit a pre-existing document's
original date of creation. or, if some users find the current
behavior useful, i'd love to see a preference to toggle this behavior.

i don't know if the topic of yojimbo copying vs. pointing to
documents has already been discussed. for the record, i do wish
yojimbo simply pointed to documents, rather than making copies of
them. however, in the absence of that functionality, if yojimbo must
copy each document, it should inherit the original dates of creation
(just as the finder does).

please consider this! :-)

thanks,

-merv

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On 5/4/07, soundsgoodtome@[Protected] <soundsgoodtome@[Protected]> wrote:

> hence, request #1: the ability to edit the creation and modification
> dates.

I would benefit from this as well. I have a large number of small
compositions (~200) originally written in MacJournal. I was able to
import them without problem, but now they all have the same date. This
doesn't matter for most of my other Yojimbo content, but for these
entries it would be meaningful to be able to sort and view them
chronologically.

Since I have already imported these items, the ability to correct
their dates (item "backdating," if you will) would be ideal. However,
I suppose a valid argument could be made to keep these dates
immutable, so in either case preserving the creation date of imported
items would be a reasonable solution.

Jim

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Hello,

I also support these two features, especially #2 (date modification
may have its drawbacks -so a toggle bhaviour in prefs might be OK-,
and importing creation dates seems a good option).

Thanks
yvan

Le 5 mai 07 à 03:28, soundsgoodtome@[Protected] a écrit :

> this is a two-part request:
>
> i'm leaning heavily toward yojimbo, after trying out various
> competitors, especially one called "kit." so now, i'd like to
> transfer some items from kit into yojimbo. but when i do, yojimbo
> registers the date of *import* as the date *created*, which causes
> associated documents (such as pdfs that all pertain to one project)
> to appear out of order, when viewing by date. i often view by date
> so i can quickly reference all of the most recent documents -- of
> various types -- within any folder. but yojimbo's current behavior
> prevents this. (of course, i'm referring to pre-existing documents,
> such as pdfs, etc.) so i was hoping that yojimbo's date fields were
> editable -- perhaps in the inspector window -- but alas, they are not.
>
> hence, request #1: the ability to edit the creation and
> modification dates.
>
> IMHO, registering the date of *import*, as if it were the date of
> creation, is simply incorrect. (the date that a pre-existing
> document was imported into yojimbo seems completely irrelevant to
> me, as opposed to, say, a note that is actually created within
> yojimbo.)
>
> hence, request #2: yojimbo should inherit a pre-existing document's
> original date of creation. or, if some users find the current
> behavior useful, i'd love to see a preference to toggle this behavior.
>
> i don't know if the topic of yojimbo copying vs. pointing to
> documents has already been discussed. for the record, i do wish
> yojimbo simply pointed to documents, rather than making copies of
> them. however, in the absence of that functionality, if yojimbo
> must copy each document, it should inherit the original dates of
> creation (just as the finder does).
>
> please consider this! :-)
>
> thanks,
>
> -merv
>
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Yvan Rahbé
85, rue des Charmettes
69100 Villeurbanne
Tel: 04 78 52 99 57
Mel: yvan.rahbe@[Protected]

At 10:00 AM -0400 5/5/07, Yvan Rahbé wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I also support these two features, especially #2
>(date modification may have its drawbacks -so a
>toggle bhaviour in prefs might be OK-, and
>importing creation dates seems a good option).
>
>Thanks
>yvan

I support anything that allows us to organize our
data the way we want. It certainly did brother me
when I had to export my old data from another
organizer into Yojimbo and 1) lose all my
original creation dates; 2) and to have a program
establish new incorrect creation dates that I
could not alter.

No offense meant to the Yojimbo programmers, but
this is an example of how a programmer thinks
that s/he knows what the user needs as compared
to what the user actually wants.

Cheers,

tedd
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On 6 May 2007, at 14:51, tedd wrote:

> No offense meant to the Yojimbo programmers, but this is an example
> of how a programmer thinks that s/he knows what the user needs as
> compared to what the user actually wants.


Well, not necessarily, there are all sorts of more likely
explanations than arrogant programmers. Also, when you say 'what the
user actually wants' you really mean 'what I and a few others here
actually want' - I'm perfectly happy with the creation date as it is
because it allows me to see when the entry was created in Yojimbo -
in that sense, the creation date refers not to the source document,
but to the new Yojimbo item. I do see your point, but this strikes me
as overly harsh criticism.


T.

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At 3:00 PM +0100 5/6/07, infrahile wrote:
>On 6 May 2007, at 14:51, tedd wrote:
>
>>No offense meant to the Yojimbo programmers, but this is an example
>>of how a programmer thinks that s/he knows what the user needs as
>>compared to what the user actually wants.
>
>
>Well, not necessarily, there are all sorts of more likely
>explanations than arrogant programmers. Also, when you say 'what the
>user actually wants' you really mean 'what I and a few others here
>actually want' - I'm perfectly happy with the creation date as it is
>because it allows me to see when the entry was created in Yojimbo -
>in that sense, the creation date refers not to the source document,
>but to the new Yojimbo item. I do see your point, but this strikes
>me as overly harsh criticism.

Don't get me wrong, I've been programming for over 40 years and my
comments are not meant to sound harsh or paint programmers as
arrogant. But from experience, programmers think about the data and
not necessarily how user will use it -- that's why GUI is like a new
(anything that is less than 20 years old is new to me) science to
programming. First, solve the problem and then make it easy for the
user. Sometimes there's a disconnect between how the user is going to
use the data and how the programmer expects the data to be used --
that's a fact -- I've been there too many times myself to claim any
different.

However, once a need is known, then programmers can certainly comply.
It's not a question of harshness or arrogance, it's just one of
ignorance (not meant in a bad way). If you don't know that something
is needed, then it's not a bad thing until you don't do anything
about it after you learn.

Hey, Yojimbo is the best product on the market, that's why I use it.
But, as Will Rogers once said "You may be on the right track, but
you'll get run over if you just sit there."

Cheers,

tedd

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On 6 May 2007, at 15:21, tedd wrote:

> But from experience, programmers think about the data and not
> necessarily how user will use it -- that's why GUI is like a new
> (anything that is less than 20 years old is new to me) science to
> programming. First, solve the problem and then make it easy for the
> user. Sometimes there's a disconnect between how the user is going
> to use the data and how the programmer expects the data to be used
> -- that's a fact -- I've been there too many times myself to claim
> any different.


All fair enough, although I'd argue that these sort of issues should
be thrashed out in the initial design process by Information
Architects and Interface Designers in consultation with Programmers
(and by reference to appropriate user research) - of course there is
overlap in these roles but just to point out that this is not
something that should be an issue for a programmers alone in a well
resourced software house. This is why a good design process is so
important, programmers in my experience rarely make great user
interface designers (and I include in this the overall feature set
and interaction principles, not just the GUI look and feel), of
course there are exceptions like the Dave Watanabes of the world, but
as a general rule you get the point!

Anyway, I feel we're drifting off-topic… ;o)

T.
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Couldn't you just back up Yojimbo's database?

On 5/7/07, Ross Winn <ross.winn@[Protected]> wrote:
> Can I chime in too? Maybe only allowing the creation date to be
> modified. I don't know, but it is an interesting question. What
> really pisses me off is that the creation and mod dates aren't
> supported for backup and restore. When I expert all of my items,
> since Yojimbo has no convenient backup feature, all of that info is
> lost.
>
> I used to review a lot of software, it was how I found Yojimbo
> actually, when my system started crashing regularly I simply wiped
> and reinstalled - but when reimporting all of those items that
> metadata was lost. Two years worth (it has been a couple years,
> hasn't it).
--
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http://godlikenerd.com
http://macuser.com
ddelong@[Protected]

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On 5/4/07, soundsgoodtome@[Protected] <soundsgoodtome@[Protected]> wrote:

> hence, request #1: the ability to edit the creation and modification
> dates.
>
> IMHO, registering the date of *import*, as if it were the date of
> creation, is simply incorrect. (the date that a pre-existing document
> was imported into yojimbo seems completely irrelevant to me, as
> opposed to, say, a note that is actually created within yojimbo.)

Hi, folks. I've written a little script to address this idea. It's an
AppleScript called "Backdate Items" that modifies item timestamps
directly in Yojimbo's database. Needless to say, this is an
inadvisably sneaky solution. However, if you'd really like to change
some item creation dates, you may consider it worth the risk.

http://anoved.net/2007/05/backdate-yojimbo-items.html

The script and instructions how to use it are provided at that page.
Note that you do have to restart Yojimbo before timestamp changes are
visible in the program. Again, I can make no guarantees that this
won't cause problems now or in the future (especially with syncing,
which I haven't tested yet). With that in mind, I welcome your
feedback. I've been using it to backdate some of those compositions I
mentioned earlier and everything appears to be working fine.

Be well,
Jim

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thanks, jim. i really appreciate this.

the more i think about this issue, i realize that there are many
documents i will need to change. in fact, for me, it will be
essentially every document that i import.... as such, going forward,
it's going to be quite a bit of extra work to manually change the
dates of each document that i import.

so, to the yojimbo developers: will you consider adding, as a
preference, the ability to inherit the creation dates of imported
documents?

-merv
------------------------------

On May 7, 2007, at 8:48pm, Jim DeVona wrote:

> On 5/4/07, soundsgoodtome@[Protected] <soundsgoodtome@[Protected]> wrote:
>
>> hence, request #1: the ability to edit the creation and modification
>> dates.
>>
>> IMHO, registering the date of *import*, as if it were the date of
>> creation, is simply incorrect. (the date that a pre-existing document
>> was imported into yojimbo seems completely irrelevant to me, as
>> opposed to, say, a note that is actually created within yojimbo.)
>
> Hi, folks. I've written a little script to address this idea. It's an
> AppleScript called "Backdate Items" that modifies item timestamps
> directly in Yojimbo's database. Needless to say, this is an
> inadvisably sneaky solution. However, if you'd really like to change
> some item creation dates, you may consider it worth the risk.
>
> http://anoved.net/2007/05/backdate-yojimbo-items.html
>
> The script and instructions how to use it are provided at that page.
> Note that you do have to restart Yojimbo before timestamp changes are
> visible in the program. Again, I can make no guarantees that this
> won't cause problems now or in the future (especially with syncing,
> which I haven't tested yet). With that in mind, I welcome your
> feedback. I've been using it to backdate some of those compositions I
> mentioned earlier and everything appears to be working fine.
>
> Be well,
> Jim

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On 5/8/07, soundsgoodtome@[Protected] <soundsgoodtome@[Protected]> wrote:

> thanks, jim. i really appreciate this.

No problem. After thinking about it a bit I realized it was something
I could use myself.

> the more i think about this issue, i realize that there are many
> documents i will need to change. in fact, for me, it will be
> essentially every document that i import.... as such, going forward,
> it's going to be quite a bit of extra work to manually change the
> dates of each document that i import.

True. This script is best suited to making a few isolated corrections.

Ideally, you'd like each newly imported Yojimbo item to inherit the
creation and modification dates of the Finder file it was imported
from, correct? I think it would be feasible to write an import script
that uses this script's code to automatically adjust the date of each
imported item.

> so, to the yojimbo developers: will you consider adding, as a
> preference, the ability to inherit the creation dates of imported
> documents?

If there's any indication that this is in the pipeline, I won't bother
writing another script.

Anyway, I did issue a minor update to the script yesterday that just
performs a bit more validation on the format of the date text you
enter.

Jim

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On 5/9/07, Jim DeVona <jim.devona@[Protected]> wrote:

> > the more i think about this issue, i realize that there are many
> > documents i will need to change. in fact, for me, it will be
> > essentially every document that i import.... as such, going forward,
> > it's going to be quite a bit of extra work to manually change the
> > dates of each document that i import.
>
> True. This script is best suited to making a few isolated corrections.
>
> Ideally, you'd like each newly imported Yojimbo item to inherit the
> creation and modification dates of the Finder file it was imported
> from, correct? I think it would be feasible to write an import script
> that uses this script's code to automatically adjust the date of each
> imported item.

Here it is: http://anoved.net/2007/05/backdate-yojimbo-import.html

When you run the script, it'll present a file browser. Choose the
files you want to import. They'll be automatically "backdated" with
the creation and modification dates of the actual files after they're
imported. (As with the other script, you'll still need to restart
Yojimbo before the corrected dates are visible.)

Based on a bit more testing it seems that it is safe to edit backdated
items before restarting Yojimbo. The modification date will be
changed, of course, but the creation date will be untouched.
Nevertheless, I still feel obliged to warn that these scripts use
unsanctioned methods to do their deeds!

Let me know how it goes.
Jim

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wow, jim, this is awesome. i'll try it later this evening.

thanks!!
------------------------------

On May 9, 2007, at 12:25pm, Jim DeVona wrote:

> On 5/9/07, Jim DeVona <jim.devona@[Protected]> wrote:
>
>> > the more i think about this issue, i realize that there are many
>> > documents i will need to change. in fact, for me, it will be
>> > essentially every document that i import.... as such, going
>> forward,
>> > it's going to be quite a bit of extra work to manually change the
>> > dates of each document that i import.
>>
>> True. This script is best suited to making a few isolated
>> corrections.
>>
>> Ideally, you'd like each newly imported Yojimbo item to inherit the
>> creation and modification dates of the Finder file it was imported
>> from, correct? I think it would be feasible to write an import script
>> that uses this script's code to automatically adjust the date of each
>> imported item.
>
> Here it is: http://anoved.net/2007/05/backdate-yojimbo-import.html
>
> When you run the script, it'll present a file browser. Choose the
> files you want to import. They'll be automatically "backdated" with
> the creation and modification dates of the actual files after they're
> imported. (As with the other script, you'll still need to restart
> Yojimbo before the corrected dates are visible.)
>
> Based on a bit more testing it seems that it is safe to edit backdated
> items before restarting Yojimbo. The modification date will be
> changed, of course, but the creation date will be untouched.
> Nevertheless, I still feel obliged to warn that these scripts use
> unsanctioned methods to do their deeds!
>
> Let me know how it goes.
> Jim
>
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Just to let you know, I've successfully synced a bunch of "backdated" items
(I use SyncTogether). Both libraries contained a large set of notes I
imported last year (so all the Yojimbo items were considered created in Nov
2006). On one machine I used my backdate items script to restore their
original creation dates, ranging back to 1996. After synchronization, the
other machine now shows these dates as well.

Jim

> On 5/10/07, soundsgoodtome@[Protected] <soundsgoodtome@[Protected] > wrote:
> > wow, jim, this is awesome. i'll try it later this evening.
> >
> > thanks!!
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > On May 9, 2007, at 12:25pm, Jim DeVona wrote:
> >
> > > On 5/9/07, Jim DeVona <jim.devona@[Protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> > the more i think about this issue, i realize that there are many
> > >> > documents i will need to change. in fact, for me, it will be
> > >> > essentially every document that i import.... as such, going
> > >> forward,
> > >> > it's going to be quite a bit of extra work to manually change the
> > >> > dates of each document that i import.
> > >>
> > >> True. This script is best suited to making a few isolated
> > >> corrections.
> > >>
> > >> Ideally, you'd like each newly imported Yojimbo item to inherit the
> > >> creation and modification dates of the Finder file it was imported
> > >> from, correct? I think it would be feasible to write an import script
> > >> that uses this script's code to automatically adjust the date of each
> > >> imported item.
> > >
> > > Here it is:
> http://anoved.net/2007/05/backdate-yojimbo-import.html
> > >
> > > When you run the script, it'll present a file browser. Choose the
> > > files you want to import. They'll be automatically "backdated" with
> > > the creation and modification dates of the actual files after they're
> > > imported. (As with the other script, you'll still need to restart
> > > Yojimbo before the corrected dates are visible.)
> > >
> > > Based on a bit more testing it seems that it is safe to edit backdated
> > > items before restarting Yojimbo. The modification date will be
> > > changed, of course, but the creation date will be untouched.
> > > Nevertheless, I still feel obliged to warn that these scripts use
> > > unsanctioned methods to do their deeds!
> > >
> > > Let me know how it goes.
> > > Jim
> >
>
>

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