Working on a book that includes numbered lists scattered on the text
pages. Some are short (single digits) but some go into double digits.
Each number is followed by a period (and a tab).

I always like to align numbered lists so the single digits align with
the second digits of the two-digit numbers. IOW, all of the periods
line up. Not sure what the technical term is -- numbers aligned right?

Anyway, text paragraphs are indented 1.5 picas. Can't decide whether
I should align the first or second digit of the numbered lists with
the paragraph indent. Looks funny either way -- either the single- or
double digit-numbers aren't going to align.

Comments?

TIA,

Marlene

You can right align the number lists to the right but you need to make sure
that you have enough of a left indent for the number to be pushed back when
they hit two digits. If you don't do that they'll look like they're left
aligned.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: InDesign Talk [mailto:indesign@[Protected]] On Behalf Of
Marlene
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:45 PM
To: InDesign Talk
Subject: Aligning numbered lists and paragraph indents

Working on a book that includes numbered lists scattered on the text
pages. Some are short (single digits) but some go into double digits.
Each number is followed by a period (and a tab).

I always like to align numbered lists so the single digits align with
the second digits of the two-digit numbers. IOW, all of the periods
line up. Not sure what the technical term is -- numbers aligned right?

Anyway, text paragraphs are indented 1.5 picas. Can't decide whether
I should align the first or second digit of the numbered lists with
the paragraph indent. Looks funny either way -- either the single- or
double digit-numbers aren't going to align.

Comments?

TIA,

Marlene

Hmmm, I'm not following ... I do have the indents/tabs set up
correctly so the single- and double-digit numbers align properly. My
concern is how they align with the normal text paragraph ident.

Here's how I've got it set up now:

Normal paragraph of text with a 1.5
pica ident, blah blah blah.

1. Single digit numbered list item
10. Two digit numbered list item

Not sure how this will look in various e-mail clients. but basically
right now I've got the first digit of the last line indented to match
the text paragraph indent.

It makes the single-digit line items look funny to me, since they
don't align with the paragraph indents.

If I do it this way:

Normal paragraph of text with a 1.5
pica ident, blah blah blah.

1. Single digit numbered list item
10. Two digit numbered list item

The first digit of the two-digit line items falls to the left of the
1.5 pica paragraph indent.

So the question is, which one looks worse? <g>

Marlene

At 04:52 PM 1/4/2010, you wrote:
>You can right align the number lists to the right but you need to make sure
>that you have enough of a left indent for the number to be pushed back when
>they hit two digits. If you don't do that they'll look like they're left
>aligned.
>
>Bob
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: InDesign Talk [mailto:indesign@[Protected]] On Behalf Of
>Marlene
>Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:45 PM
>To: InDesign Talk
>Subject: Aligning numbered lists and paragraph indents
>
>Working on a book that includes numbered lists scattered on the text
>pages. Some are short (single digits) but some go into double digits.
>Each number is followed by a period (and a tab).
>
>I always like to align numbered lists so the single digits align with
>the second digits of the two-digit numbers. IOW, all of the periods
>line up. Not sure what the technical term is -- numbers aligned right?
>
>Anyway, text paragraphs are indented 1.5 picas. Can't decide whether
>I should align the first or second digit of the numbered lists with
>the paragraph indent. Looks funny either way -- either the single- or
>double digit-numbers aren't going to align.
>
>Comments?
>
>TIA,
>
>Marlene

On Jan 4, 2010, at 5:14 PM, Marlene wrote:

> So the question is, which one looks worse? <g>


Try this:

Paragraph > Bulleted list
Numbering Style: you choices here
Number Position:
Alignment: Right
Left Indent: 2p0
First Line Ind: -0p6
Tab Position: 2p0

Note the Left Indent and Tab Position set the alignment of the hanging paragraph
The -0p6 First Line Position defines the position of the period
The Alignment: Right aligns the numbers in column format. BTW, the term is "Hang for 10" or "Indent for 10."

Tweak the indents to suit your fancy.


| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Michael Brady
michaelb@[Protected]
http://considerthepreposition.blogspot.com/
http://thinkinglikeadesigner.blogspot.com/
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I think I'm not phrasing my question correctly.

I know how to set up the numbered list to make it hang 10. My
question is whether the first or the second digit should align with
the standard 1.5 pica first-line indent in the text paragraphs.

So it's a question of style, not technique ...

Marlene


At 07:54 PM 1/4/2010, you wrote:

>On Jan 4, 2010, at 5:14 PM, Marlene wrote:
>
> > So the question is, which one looks worse? <g>
>
>
>Try this:
>
>Paragraph > Bulleted list
>Numbering Style: you choices here
>Number Position:
> Alignment: Right
> Left Indent: 2p0
> First Line Ind: -0p6
> Tab Position: 2p0
>
>Note the Left Indent and Tab Position set the alignment of the
>hanging paragraph
>The -0p6 First Line Position defines the position of the period
>The Alignment: Right aligns the numbers in column format. BTW, the
>term is "Hang for 10" or "Indent for 10."
>
>Tweak the indents to suit your fancy.
>
>
>| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
>Michael Brady
>michaelb@[Protected]
>http://considerthepreposition.blogspot.com/
>http://thinkinglikeadesigner.blogspot.com/
>Subscribe: Words-and-pictures-subscribe@[Protected]
>Unsubscribe: Words-and-pictures-unsubscribe@[Protected]

It's a judgement call. On a large job with lots of lists, an
appreciable number of which go to two digits, I'd always clear for
both digits (meaning only the two-digit numbers will align with the
paragraph indents and any all-one-digit lists will look further
indented).

On smaller jobs, where finesse is allowed and encouraged, I might
only clear for two digits in the lists that actually make it that far.

Brad


On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:17 PM, Marlene wrote:

> I think I'm not phrasing my question correctly.
>
> I know how to set up the numbered list to make it hang 10. My
> question is whether the first or the second digit should align with
> the standard 1.5 pica first-line indent in the text paragraphs.
>
> So it's a question of style, not technique ...
>
> Marlene

It's a judgement call. On a large job with lots of lists, an
appreciable number of which go to two digits, I'd always clear for
both digits (meaning only the two-digit numbers will align with the
paragraph indents and any all-one-digit lists will look further
indented).

On smaller jobs, where finesse is allowed and encouraged, I might
only clear for two digits in the lists that actually make it that far.

Brad


On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:17 PM, Marlene wrote:

> I think I'm not phrasing my question correctly.
>
> I know how to set up the numbered list to make it hang 10. My
> question is whether the first or the second digit should align with
> the standard 1.5 pica first-line indent in the text paragraphs.
>
> So it's a question of style, not technique ...
>
> Marlene

I think I'll leave it the way I have it now -- cleared for two digits
(thanks for providing the terminology!). This isn't a huge project,
but it's chock-full of lists, bulleted (some with sublists) and
numbered. (Vertical justification is a nightmare.)

Just curious -- would you ever leave the numbers (in a list
containing one- and two-digit numbers) NOT right-aligned (so the
periods after the numbers line up)? I often receive files that are
set up that way (not right-aligned), and I change them.

Marlene

At 10:32 PM 1/4/2010, Brad wrote:
>It's a judgement call. On a large job with lots of lists, an
>appreciable number of which go to two digits, I'd always clear for
>both digits (meaning only the two-digit numbers will align with the
>paragraph indents and any all-one-digit lists will look further
>indented).
>
>On smaller jobs, where finesse is allowed and encouraged, I might
>only clear for two digits in the lists that actually make it that far.
>
>Brad

>Just curious -- would you ever leave the numbers (in a list
>containing one- and two-digit numbers) NOT right-aligned (so the
>periods after the numbers line up)? I often receive files that are
>set up that way (not right-aligned), and I change them.

I prefer left aligned to give a neater edge to the text block. In my
opinion people have become used to right-aligning for columns of
financials and now do it habitually. I often go through this with
editors who mark for chapter numbers on the left edge of the contents
page to be right aligned. 'Why?' I ask. 'So the digits and tens align
vertically', they say. 'Do you intend to add them up?' I ask. At
which point they just look confused for a few seconds and then insist
their way is correct because . . . it is their way. So I smile
sweetly, assure them they are probably correct and please them by
pointlessly making the left edge ragged and untidy.

-- Keith

I might not align on the decimal if the design called for old-style
numerals in a font without fixed-width numbers, I suppose. But I love
OpenType fonts with both sets because I can use a character style to
just make the list numbers fixed-width.

You might want to take a look at Proper VJ from In-Tools to help with
the VJ.

Brad


On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:04 PM, Marlene wrote:

> I think I'll leave it the way I have it now -- cleared for two
> digits (thanks for providing the terminology!). This isn't a huge
> project, but it's chock-full of lists, bulleted (some with
> sublists) and numbered. (Vertical justification is a nightmare.)
>
> Just curious -- would you ever leave the numbers (in a list
> containing one- and two-digit numbers) NOT right-aligned (so the
> periods after the numbers line up)? I often receive files that are
> set up that way (not right-aligned), and I change them.
>
> Marlene

On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Brad Walrod wrote:

> It's a judgement call. On a large job with lots of lists, an appreciable number of which go to two digits, I'd always clear for both digits (meaning only the two-digit numbers will align with the paragraph indents and any all-one-digit lists will look further indented).

I use a rather involved decision scheme, usually this:

1. All indented material (paragraph first lines, lists and extracts) align in an easily recognized order, using easily discerned multiples of each indention. If I indent the paragraph by 1 pica, then I will indent the lists by 1 pica for the number or bullet and another 1 pica for the left margin of the indented list itself. If I indent the paragraph by 1 pica, I'll indent extracts by 1 or 2 picas on the left. (Sometimes I indent extracts from the right, but sometimes I run extracts to the full right margin of the text.)

2. All lists are indented so that the numbers align with the standard paragraph indention or with a multiple of the paragraph indention. In other words, if the paragraph indention is 1 pica and the book contains one level of numbered lists, I might indent the lists 2 picas for the numbers and another 1 pica for the hanging indented left margin of the list. If the book contains nested lists, then I might indent the first level of numbered lists 1 pica, to match the paragraph margin, and indent the nested list another 1 pica.

3. I align lists on a page by the width of the highest list number *on that page or spread*. So if lists one spread are 1-4, 1-9, and 1-6, then I indent only for a one-digit list. If the list goes to 10, I indent the list for 10, and allow numbers 1-9 to be indented one en-space from the standard indention. (BTW, I prefer all numbers to be fixed width--the only figure that differs is 1--so that columns of figures, including lists, are evenly and consistently aligned.)

4. The judgment call is this: If you have twenty lists in the chapter, but only one or two go to double digits, do you keep all of the alike, which means that eighteen of them will appear to have one extra space in the list or will appear to be indented an extra amount? Or do you make an exception only on the spread or page where the list reaches two digits? I choose to keep the spacing in the list consistent to the reader, and thus only use the two-digit indention on the pages where such lists occur. The reader will hardly notice that the spacing of the lists changed, and the result will be a consistent text color on the page.


A similar situation occurs when footnotes (bottom of page) reach double digits (and triple digits in some chapters). ONLY on the page (not spread) where BOTH footnotes 9 and 10 occur, I indent FN 9 by one en-space, to align with 10; similarly, if FN 99 and 100 occur on the same page (not spread), I indent 99 by one en-space.

When the editor calls for endnotes, lately I have opted to use a very wide gap (2-3 picas total) between the number and the text of the FN and to use hanging indention (i.e., 2-3 picas for the total indention), rather than typical paragraph indention, for the FNs. I am especially fond of using O.S. figures, which suit this style of endnote particularly well. (But, of course, O.S. figures are better suited to humanities texts, in which the use of numerals is limited typically to dates and such, rather than scientific text with lots of measurements given in numerals, in which case I use lining figures for everything.) When I set FNs this way, I align them FL and do not indent for 10 or 100.



"I trust I make myself obscure?"
"Perfectly, Thomas."
--A Man for All Seasons

Michael Brady
michaelb@[Protected]
http://considerthepreposition.blogspot.com/

Subscribe: Words-and-pictures-subscribe@[Protected]
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On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:44 PM, Marlene wrote:

> I always like to align numbered lists so the single digits align
> with the second digits of the two-digit numbers. IOW, all of the
> periods line up. Not sure what the technical term is -- numbers
> aligned right?


Brad didn't specifically state it, but the term I've always heard used
for this is ``clear for 10 (or 100 for books w/ _really_ long lists)''

The big reason to do it is it eliminates a bit of contextual
formatting (how many items are in this list?) on primitive systems
which can't count.

William

--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.

Fwiw, I've taken a look at some technical books -- mainly logic and
linguistics - in which numbered lists and sublists occur frequently.
So far as I can tell, there isn't any standard practice. Even in
lists whose items are numbered by Roman numerals, I've got books
where the alignment is on the left, and others where it's on the
right. Roman numbering is the extreme case, since the width of the
numerals changes dramatically and often, and in this case right-
aligning looks much better to me. Whether or not that indicates it's
*always* better, regardless of numeral style, I don't know.

Graeme Forbes

Fwiw, I've taken a look at some technical books -- mainly logic and
linguistics - in which numbered lists and sublists occur frequently.
So far as I can tell, there isn't any standard practice. Even in
lists whose items are numbered by Roman numerals, I've got books
where the alignment is on the left, and others where it's on the
right. Roman numbering is the extreme case, since the width of the
numerals changes dramatically and often, and in this case right-
aligning looks much better to me. Whether or not that indicates it's
*always* better, regardless of numeral style, I don't know.

Graeme Forbes

Almost all of the time, I don't fight this. If I'm lining up at all,
Decimal alignment has (good or bad) become a usual practice,
especially when legibility in long blocks of copy matters.


On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Brad Walrod wrote:

> I might not align on the decimal if the design called for old-style
> numerals in a font without fixed-width numbers, I suppose. But I
> love OpenType fonts with both sets because I can use a character
> style to just make the list numbers fixed-width.
>
> You might want to take a look at Proper VJ from In-Tools to help
> with the VJ.
>
> Brad
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:04 PM, Marlene wrote:
>
>> I think I'll leave it the way I have it now -- cleared for two
>> digits (thanks for providing the terminology!). This isn't a huge
>> project, but it's chock-full of lists, bulleted (some with
>> sublists) and numbered. (Vertical justification is a nightmare.)
>>
>> Just curious -- would you ever leave the numbers (in a list
>> containing one- and two-digit numbers) NOT right-aligned (so the
>> periods after the numbers line up)? I often receive files that are
>> set up that way (not right-aligned), and I change them.
>>
>> Marlene
>
>
> --
>
>
>

Bob

Robert K Severn
Severn Associates
Marketing Services
rsevern@[Protected]

"The difference between death and taxes is
death doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
- Will Rogers

A very thorough answer. Now my head hurts. :-)


On Jan 5, 2010, at 2:49 AM, Michael Brady wrote:

>
> On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Brad Walrod wrote:
>
>> It's a judgement call. On a large job with lots of lists, an
>> appreciable number of which go to two digits, I'd always clear for
>> both digits (meaning only the two-digit numbers will align with the
>> paragraph indents and any all-one-digit lists will look further
>> indented).
>
> I use a rather involved decision scheme, usually this:
>
> 1. All indented material (paragraph first lines, lists and extracts)
> align in an easily recognized order, using easily discerned
> multiples of each indention. If I indent the paragraph by 1 pica,
> then I will indent the lists by 1 pica for the number or bullet and
> another 1 pica for the left margin of the indented list itself. If I
> indent the paragraph by 1 pica, I'll indent extracts by 1 or 2 picas
> on the left. (Sometimes I indent extracts from the right, but
> sometimes I run extracts to the full right margin of the text.)
>
> 2. All lists are indented so that the numbers align with the
> standard paragraph indention or with a multiple of the paragraph
> indention. In other words, if the paragraph indention is 1 pica and
> the book contains one level of numbered lists, I might indent the
> lists 2 picas for the numbers and another 1 pica for the hanging
> indented left margin of the list. If the book contains nested lists,
> then I might indent the first level of numbered lists 1 pica, to
> match the paragraph margin, and indent the nested list another 1 pica.
>
> 3. I align lists on a page by the width of the highest list number
> *on that page or spread*. So if lists one spread are 1-4, 1-9, and
> 1-6, then I indent only for a one-digit list. If the list goes to
> 10, I indent the list for 10, and allow numbers 1-9 to be indented
> one en-space from the standard indention. (BTW, I prefer all numbers
> to be fixed width--the only figure that differs is 1--so that
> columns of figures, including lists, are evenly and consistently
> aligned.)
>
> 4. The judgment call is this: If you have twenty lists in the
> chapter, but only one or two go to double digits, do you keep all of
> the alike, which means that eighteen of them will appear to have one
> extra space in the list or will appear to be indented an extra
> amount? Or do you make an exception only on the spread or page where
> the list reaches two digits? I choose to keep the spacing in the
> list consistent to the reader, and thus only use the two-digit
> indention on the pages where such lists occur. The reader will
> hardly notice that the spacing of the lists changed, and the result
> will be a consistent text color on the page.
>
>
> A similar situation occurs when footnotes (bottom of page) reach
> double digits (and triple digits in some chapters). ONLY on the page
> (not spread) where BOTH footnotes 9 and 10 occur, I indent FN 9 by
> one en-space, to align with 10; similarly, if FN 99 and 100 occur on
> the same page (not spread), I indent 99 by one en-space.
>
> When the editor calls for endnotes, lately I have opted to use a
> very wide gap (2-3 picas total) between the number and the text of
> the FN and to use hanging indention (i.e., 2-3 picas for the total
> indention), rather than typical paragraph indention, for the FNs. I
> am especially fond of using O.S. figures, which suit this style of
> endnote particularly well. (But, of course, O.S. figures are better
> suited to humanities texts, in which the use of numerals is limited
> typically to dates and such, rather than scientific text with lots
> of measurements given in numerals, in which case I use lining
> figures for everything.) When I set FNs this way, I align them FL
> and do not indent for 10 or 100.
>
>
>
> "I trust I make myself obscure?"
> "Perfectly, Thomas."
> --A Man for All Seasons
>
> Michael Brady
> michaelb@[Protected]
> http://considerthepreposition.blogspot.com/
>
> Subscribe: Words-and-pictures-subscribe@[Protected]
> Unsubscribe: Words-and-pictures-unsubscribe@[Protected]
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>

Bob

Robert K Severn
Severn Associates
Marketing Services
rsevern@[Protected]

"The difference between death and taxes is
death doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
- Will Rogers

Almost all of the time, I don't fight this. If I'm lining up at all,
Decimal alignment has (good or bad) become a usual practice,
especially when legibility in long blocks of copy matters.


On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Brad Walrod wrote:

> I might not align on the decimal if the design called for old-style
> numerals in a font without fixed-width numbers, I suppose. But I
> love OpenType fonts with both sets because I can use a character
> style to just make the list numbers fixed-width.
>
> You might want to take a look at Proper VJ from In-Tools to help
> with the VJ.
>
> Brad
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:04 PM, Marlene wrote:
>
>> I think I'll leave it the way I have it now -- cleared for two
>> digits (thanks for providing the terminology!). This isn't a huge
>> project, but it's chock-full of lists, bulleted (some with
>> sublists) and numbered. (Vertical justification is a nightmare.)
>>
>> Just curious -- would you ever leave the numbers (in a list
>> containing one- and two-digit numbers) NOT right-aligned (so the
>> periods after the numbers line up)? I often receive files that are
>> set up that way (not right-aligned), and I change them.
>>
>> Marlene
>
>
> --
>
>
>

Bob

Robert K Severn
Severn Associates
Marketing Services
rsevern@[Protected]

"The difference between death and taxes is
death doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
- Will Rogers

A very thorough answer. Now my head hurts. :-)


On Jan 5, 2010, at 2:49 AM, Michael Brady wrote:

>
> On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Brad Walrod wrote:
>
>> It's a judgement call. On a large job with lots of lists, an
>> appreciable number of which go to two digits, I'd always clear for
>> both digits (meaning only the two-digit numbers will align with the
>> paragraph indents and any all-one-digit lists will look further
>> indented).
>
> I use a rather involved decision scheme, usually this:
>
> 1. All indented material (paragraph first lines, lists and extracts)
> align in an easily recognized order, using easily discerned
> multiples of each indention. If I indent the paragraph by 1 pica,
> then I will indent the lists by 1 pica for the number or bullet and
> another 1 pica for the left margin of the indented list itself. If I
> indent the paragraph by 1 pica, I'll indent extracts by 1 or 2 picas
> on the left. (Sometimes I indent extracts from the right, but
> sometimes I run extracts to the full right margin of the text.)
>
> 2. All lists are indented so that the numbers align with the
> standard paragraph indention or with a multiple of the paragraph
> indention. In other words, if the paragraph indention is 1 pica and
> the book contains one level of numbered lists, I might indent the
> lists 2 picas for the numbers and another 1 pica for the hanging
> indented left margin of the list. If the book contains nested lists,
> then I might indent the first level of numbered lists 1 pica, to
> match the paragraph margin, and indent the nested list another 1 pica.
>
> 3. I align lists on a page by the width of the highest list number
> *on that page or spread*. So if lists one spread are 1-4, 1-9, and
> 1-6, then I indent only for a one-digit list. If the list goes to
> 10, I indent the list for 10, and allow numbers 1-9 to be indented
> one en-space from the standard indention. (BTW, I prefer all numbers
> to be fixed width--the only figure that differs is 1--so that
> columns of figures, including lists, are evenly and consistently
> aligned.)
>
> 4. The judgment call is this: If you have twenty lists in the
> chapter, but only one or two go to double digits, do you keep all of
> the alike, which means that eighteen of them will appear to have one
> extra space in the list or will appear to be indented an extra
> amount? Or do you make an exception only on the spread or page where
> the list reaches two digits? I choose to keep the spacing in the
> list consistent to the reader, and thus only use the two-digit
> indention on the pages where such lists occur. The reader will
> hardly notice that the spacing of the lists changed, and the result
> will be a consistent text color on the page.
>
>
> A similar situation occurs when footnotes (bottom of page) reach
> double digits (and triple digits in some chapters). ONLY on the page
> (not spread) where BOTH footnotes 9 and 10 occur, I indent FN 9 by
> one en-space, to align with 10; similarly, if FN 99 and 100 occur on
> the same page (not spread), I indent 99 by one en-space.
>
> When the editor calls for endnotes, lately I have opted to use a
> very wide gap (2-3 picas total) between the number and the text of
> the FN and to use hanging indention (i.e., 2-3 picas for the total
> indention), rather than typical paragraph indention, for the FNs. I
> am especially fond of using O.S. figures, which suit this style of
> endnote particularly well. (But, of course, O.S. figures are better
> suited to humanities texts, in which the use of numerals is limited
> typically to dates and such, rather than scientific text with lots
> of measurements given in numerals, in which case I use lining
> figures for everything.) When I set FNs this way, I align them FL
> and do not indent for 10 or 100.
>
>
>
> "I trust I make myself obscure?"
> "Perfectly, Thomas."
> --A Man for All Seasons
>
> Michael Brady
> michaelb@[Protected]
> http://considerthepreposition.blogspot.com/
>
> Subscribe: Words-and-pictures-subscribe@[Protected]
> Unsubscribe: Words-and-pictures-unsubscribe@[Protected]
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>

Bob

Robert K Severn
Severn Associates
Marketing Services
rsevern@[Protected]

"The difference between death and taxes is
death doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
- Will Rogers