Hi GL Folks:

Does anyone have a recommendation for a Web hosting service/site that
enables a client to update their own content without having to deal with
HTML/programming?

I come from a build-everything-from-scratch background (thus I owned GoLive
for years) so I'm not familiar with many of the DIY sites/services out there
today. Basically, a client would like to have a basic site designed, and
then be able to manage the text/image content themselves.

(I did the whole Co-Author thing once, and swore I'd never do it again.)

Pre-templated sites and blog-based services are fine -- I'm not looking to
get a bunch of work out of this, just get the client into something simple
they can manage. I believe they already have hosting at Register.com but I
think they'd be open to moving to a new host.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, UX Design

Hi, Scott ..
I think you want a CMS ... Content Management System.
There are two that appeal to me: DotNetNuke and Drupal, because they
are basically frameworks that hold pre-made modules, yet let you
design things yourself as well.

I use DotNetNuke. It is a very mature and versatile CMS with a lot of
different modules that do various things, and comes with several basic
ones.
It lets the client upload images and format them, and has a "Word"
like text editor built in, or they can simply paste in content they
have edited themselves in their own Word apps. and it cleans up the
Word markup so you don't end up with curious characters in the text.

There are also a large number of pre-designed site themes called
"Skins" you can buy for not very much ($25 to $100 or so, if you don't
want to go through the learning curve of designing your own, and you
can pass that cost along to the customer.

There are a number of others that do various things. The ones I
personally tried had GUIs that obfuscated too much for my taste. Got
in my way too much : like Mambo and its offshoot Joomla.

A lot of people seem to really like WordPress, enough that I've
considered looking into it again.

And there are a lot of opinions to choose from, too. I can hear
them coming now.

:-)

Anyway, I think if you check out some of those you can find what you
want.

.... Doug



On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:20 PM, Scott Rossi wrote:

> Hi GL Folks:
>
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a Web hosting service/site that
> enables a client to update their own content without having to deal
> with
> HTML/programming?
>
> I come from a build-everything-from-scratch background (thus I owned
> GoLive
> for years) so I'm not familiar with many of the DIY sites/services
> out there
> today. Basically, a client would like to have a basic site
> designed, and
> then be able to manage the text/image content themselves.
>
> (I did the whole Co-Author thing once, and swore I'd never do it
> again.)
>
> Pre-templated sites and blog-based services are fine -- I'm not
> looking to
> get a bunch of work out of this, just get the client into something
> simple
> they can manage. I believe they already have hosting at
> Register.com but I
> think they'd be open to moving to a new host.
>
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, UX Design

On 10-Mar-10, at 10:09 PM, Doug Fairchild wrote:

> Hi, Scott ..
> I think you want a CMS ... Content Management System.

What Doug said.... and I'd like to add some emphasis to checking out
WordPress. It IS a blog system at heart, but can be used as a paging
system without too much problem. And it's easy ;)

--
John Snippe

Recently, John Snippe wrote:

> What Doug said.... and I'd like to add some emphasis to checking out
> WordPress. It IS a blog system at heart, but can be used as a paging
> system without too much problem. And it's easy ;)

Thanks for the responses. I like easy. :-) But my limited experience with
WP and other CMS has been for blogging only. Does WP provide some kind of
editing system to set up navigation, etc, or do you have to go into the
HTML/CSS and modify the code by hand?

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, UX Design

> What Doug said.... and I'd like to add some emphasis to checking out
> WordPress. It IS a blog system at heart, but can be used as a paging
> system without too much problem. And it's easy ;)

Ditto. I recently did a site for an author entirely built on Wordpress
<http://animalfactorybook.com/>.

The trickiest part was just learning about Wordpress because I had never
really used it before. It's got its own nomenclature with widgets, plugins,
tags, etc. So at first all the choices were a little overwhelming.

Right now I'm working on a wiki built in Wordpress so I'm starting to get
the hang of it.

Lynne

> Thanks for the responses. I like easy. :-) But my limited experience with
> WP and other CMS has been for blogging only. Does WP provide some kind of
> editing system to set up navigation, etc, or do you have to go into the
> HTML/CSS and modify the code by hand?

Yeah, you can set up navigation with the Pages feature. But you can also add
your own coding if you want.

I'm working on a WP site that has three different navigation sets:
1. Pages
2. Categories
3. My code embedded in php template

IMO, the most important skill for Wordpress: CSS.

Lynne

Hi Scott:

I have built a system like this and am doing all sites this way now. It
not only includes client maintenance, but also a system for clients to
affect SEO elements like meta descriptions, etc.

If they can fill out a form, they can change content and images on their
sites.

I have partnered with a few other web folks who are managing the client.
Web person manage design expectations. I set up the site, and teach the
web person all she/he needs to know to keep client up to date and happy,
including mail lists, galleries, blogs. Painless for all, including me. :-)

Contact me off list and I'll give you a tour of the system.


Scott Rossi wrote:
> Hi GL Folks:
>
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a Web hosting service/site that
> enables a client to update their own content without having to deal with
> HTML/programming?
>
> I come from a build-everything-from-scratch background (thus I owned GoLive
> for years) so I'm not familiar with many of the DIY sites/services out there
> today. Basically, a client would like to have a basic site designed, and
> then be able to manage the text/image content themselves.
>
> (I did the whole Co-Author thing once, and swore I'd never do it again.)
>
> Pre-templated sites and blog-based services are fine -- I'm not looking to
> get a bunch of work out of this, just get the client into something simple
> they can manage. I believe they already have hosting at Register.com but I
> think they'd be open to moving to a new host.
>
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, UX Design
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>


--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

Scott Rossi wrote:
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a Web hosting service/site that
> enables a client to update their own content without having to deal with
> HTML/programming?

Howdy Scott - good to see you here. :)

I have a client using Joomla, and while I was initially resistant to it
(based only on previous experience with other CMSes) I've come to really
like it. A lot. In fact, I was just writing another client to
recommend we use it on his site too when you post came in.

It's a bit more work to set up than WordPress, but as a tool dedicated
to the job it's much more flexible, and the experience for your client
no more daunting; arguably less so in some respects since you won't be
dealing with workarounds from using a CMS designed for blogging as
opposed to one designed from the ground up for full-fledged sites.

As with any tool, it's not perfect. But I think over the long run
you'll be very happy with Joomla's flexibility, well worth investing a
little time up front to get to know its admin side.

--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Media Corporation
Developer of WebMerge: Publish any database on any Web site
__________________________________________________________
Ambassador@[Protected] http://www.FourthWorld.com

If you also considered Drupal, why did you choose Joomla? I'm trying to learn more about both, currently exploring Drupal.

Thanks,
Warren

On Mar 11, 2010, at 4:50 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

>
> I have a client using Joomla, and while I was initially resistant to it (based only on previous experience with other CMSes) I've come to really like it. A lot. In fact, I was just writing another client to recommend we use it on his site too when you post came in.

Op 11-mrt-10, om 03:20 heeft Scott Rossi het volgende geschreven:

> Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Don't forget to take security into consideration. The bigger the
system, the more updates, the more time you need for service ...
Drupal is used by the White House.
Lots of CMS's get hacked every day. It takes some precautions to
avoid that.
WordPress was initially made for blogging, but is perfectly capable
to run a "normal" site. At least it is much less complicated than
systems like Joomla, ... . Also for the users IMO.

Pieter

On 11-Mar-10, at 7:50 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> It's a bit more work to set up than WordPress, but as a tool
> dedicated to the job it's much more flexible, and the experience for
> your client no more daunting; arguably less so in some respects
> since you won't be dealing with workarounds from using a CMS
> designed for blogging as opposed to one designed from the ground up
> for full-fledged sites.
>
> As with any tool, it's not perfect. But I think over the long run
> you'll be very happy with Joomla's flexibility, well worth investing
> a little time up front to get to know its admin side.

I think you are being a bit less than candid here, Richard. Drupal/
Joomla, as full-fledged CMS systems, are indeed much more configurable
and have a great deal more flex than, say, Wordpress. But to suggest
that it will only be "a bit more work" and will only require "a little
time" to get to grips with is, to say the least, misleading. These
are comparatively (to WP) BIG apps... it will take a newbie weeks, if
not months, to get a decent handle on them compared to a day or two on
WordPress.

Are they better? Well... they are capable of doing a great deal
more. Not sure that is "better" if the needs are relatively nominal.
One doesn't (generally) use a backhoe to plant a few petunias, if you
get my meaning ;-)

--
John Snippe

On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:29 PM, John Snippe wrote:
(El snippo ..)
Drupal/Joomla, as full-fledged CMS systems, are indeed much more
configurable and have a great deal more flex than, say, Wordpress.
But to suggest that it will only be "a bit more work" and will only
require "a little time" to get to grips with is, to say the least,
misleading. These are comparatively (to WP) BIG apps... it will take
a newbie weeks, if not months, to get a decent handle on them compared
to a day or two on WordPress.
>
> Are they better? Well... they are capable of doing a great deal
> more. Not sure that is "better" if the needs are relatively
> nominal. One doesn't (generally) use a backhoe to plant a few
> petunias, if you get my meaning ;-)

I think it depends on what kind of site and what the client wants to
do with it. If it is to be able to edit pages, add and delete photos,
add and configure new pages and that sort of thing, a full featured
CMS is probably not much of a challenge. It is the webmaster /designer
who has to learn to use it, then set up the page and various goodies
for the client to use, and using it is relatively simple.

So I suspect the real decision involves what the client wants today,
what he might want a few months from now, and whether the chosen CMS
has the right stuff for the job.

Another aspect is, if you are going to learn a CMS, is it versatile
enough and powerful enough that once you have spent the time learning
to built things with it, will your time have been well invested ? Is
it something that you can use on other existing or future clients.
Sometimes if you chose the simple one, you find you need something
more for other clients, so there you are climbing up another learning
curve.

The "framework" sort of CMS like DotNetNuke and Drupal, where you
can get into the plumbing and make adjustments unavailable through a
GUI can do a lot of things I was not able to figure out with Joomla.

On the other hand, I shudder to thing what would happen if I turned a
customer loose inside it. For him, the Joomla GUI is a very good thing.

I have never used Wordpress, but the comments you all are making
sound like it is a less versatile but fairly easy thing.

But then, this is Earth ... everything I just said may be wrong.

:-)

Doug

> I have never used Wordpress, but the comments you all are making
> sound like it is a less versatile but fairly easy thing.

>From what I've seen Wordpress is extremely versatile. But like everything
else, that versatility is often dependent on the developer's knowledge of
CSS and PHP. Or how much time/patience you have to look through existing
widgets and/or plugins to find a pre-built solution.

I'd love to hear examples of what Drupal and Joomla can do that cannot be
done with WP.

Lynne

Hi ...
On Mar 11, 2010, at 3:37 AM, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:

> Hi Scott:
>
> I have built a system like this and am doing all sites this way now.
> It not only includes client maintenance, but also a system for
> clients to affect SEO elements like meta descriptions, etc.
>
> If they can fill out a form, they can change content and images on
> their sites.
>
> I have partnered with a few other web folks who are managing the
> client. Web person manage design expectations. I set up the site,
> and teach the web person all she/he needs to know to keep client up
> to date and happy, including mail lists, galleries, blogs. Painless
> for all, including me. :-)
>
> Contact me off list and I'll give you a tour of the system.

You know, when I see this kind of kind offer, I think, "wait, wait,
me too. I want to know about this, too!".

Since we are the last survivors of a bygone era, and the software that
brought us together is no more, maybe anything having to do with web
design, or even occasionally print design, is really not off topic.

This is not a high volume list anymore, and as for me, if I am not
interested in something, it is not very exhausting to punch the delete
key now and then.

I am on a list of Scientologists. Thousands of young and old
subscribers from all over the world, and every subject under the
stars comes up. There are a few rules, but one of the important ones
is you are supposed to use subject lines that show what the email is
about so that people who are not interested don't have to read through
the body to find out if they want to read it or not. The idea being
that you can just scan down the list when the email comes in and
delete the whole batch except for one or two that you want to read.
Nothing is off topic, so I delete all of them most days, but now and
then I find something I want to know about and am glad of it.

With our small group, that should be easy. Just the usual agreements
about friendliness and consideration of others, and hey, we might
learn something we wouldn't have.

Doug

On Mar 11, 2010, at 4:49 PM, Lynne Arnold wrote:
[-]
> I'd love to hear examples of what Drupal and Joomla can do that
> cannot be
> done with WP.
>
> Lynne

Me also too.

Doug

John Snippe wrote:

> On 11-Mar-10, at 7:50 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> > It's a bit more work to set up than WordPress, but as a tool
>> > dedicated to the job it's much more flexible, and the experience for
>> > your client no more daunting; arguably less so in some respects
>> > since you won't be dealing with workarounds from using a CMS
>> > designed for blogging as opposed to one designed from the ground up
>> > for full-fledged sites.
>> >
>> > As with any tool, it's not perfect. But I think over the long run
>> > you'll be very happy with Joomla's flexibility, well worth investing
>> > a little time up front to get to know its admin side.
> I think you are being a bit less than candid here, Richard. Drupal/
> Joomla, as full-fledged CMS systems, are indeed much more configurable
> and have a great deal more flex than, say, Wordpress. But to suggest
> that it will only be "a bit more work" and will only require "a little
> time" to get to grips with is, to say the least, misleading. These
> are comparatively (to WP) BIG apps... it will take a newbie weeks, if
> not months, to get a decent handle on them compared to a day or two on
> WordPress.
>
> Are they better? Well... they are capable of doing a great deal
> more. Not sure that is "better" if the needs are relatively nominal.
> One doesn't (generally) use a backhoe to plant a few petunias, if you
> get my meaning ;-)

Precisely. But neither does one drive a nail with the back end of a
screwdriver (though I've seen it done).

I agree that "better" is likely a misleading word in this context given
the various trade-offs with each choice, and since of course so much
depends on the specific scope and nature of the site that hasn't been
described here.

I have no stake in any of the tools discussed here. To paraphrase
Thomas Jefferson, it doesn't matter to me which CMS Scott uses, "it
neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg". :)

But my use of the phrase "a bit more work" is indeed candid in this
specific case:

I've known Scott for more than 15 years, and in addition to being an
extraordinarily talented designer he's also a very adept programmer.

I've seen lesser minds tackle Joomla with gusto, and get good results.

Having known Mr. Rossi for so long, I'm confident he'd have no trouble
setting up Joomla. In fact, given the time he could probably write his
own CMS solution (and it would look better than all of them <g>), but
with so many tools out there already that wouldn't be a very high-ROI
proposition.

That said, WordPress also has a strong community and may be worth
investigating as well. But since WP had already been brought up and
Joomla hadn't, it seemed worthwhile to suggest at least one more
alternative to consider. I know which hosting company he's using and
both WP and Joomla are just a click away for him, so he can explore both
at his leisure.

I'm not sure what it was in my post that merited the suggestion that I
was being anything less than simply honest in offering my opinion, but
rest assured that with Scott I'm not overestimating his abilities.

--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Media Corporation
Developer of WebMerge: Publish any database on any Web site
__________________________________________________________
Ambassador@[Protected] http://www.FourthWorld.com

On 12/03/10 11:33 GoLive Talk golive@[Protected] wrote :



For a long time I've been trying to find an app like Golive.
But no go(live).

So I considered to go the DW way, but hell no, I will not buy yet another
Adobe app, spending lots dollars to a firm that literally killed the very
best web app ever.
Investigating a lot of apps I ended on CMS apps, because those are open
source and no major company making big bucks on them and, what is essential
to me is that they are enabled/supported/developed by dedicated people
contribuating, to forums etc etc.
Looking into those I read comparisons between different CMS systems, I found
three worth while looking into, Wordpress, Drupal and CMS Made Simple
(Joomla, I checked out too, but this I trashed form the beginning - base on
a gut feeling).

I learned that Drupal is the best, but this app has a steep learning curve
and being totally unfamiliar with databases and the likes. I started with
Wordpress, an nice and easy app and very quickly learned, not in depth, but
it's okay to learn fast, the basics, and knowing a bit of CSS and the likes
it's overcoming to handle.
I then went for Drupal, but as mentioned the learning curve is steep, so I
gave this up fairly quickly. (I don't have so much time on hand, since I
drive a truck 10 hours a day).
I ended up with CMS Made Simple as the tool that can give me some knowledge
of what a CMS really is and make it possible for me to, I hope, to
understand Drupal which is my final goal, to use for making sites.


An advanced I found is that those CMS's can be runned (my spellchecker says
there is no such word as runned - hm, who cares, I hope you understand)
locally with the use of MAMP for Mac and MAMBO (I think for windows).

All those CMS's can be learned quickly and maintained by a customer, if set
up correctly, based on templates and samples.

The con is, that you are no sure the a module you add will do what is
promise, can be time consuming.

The fun part of it is, that lots of addons/modules are equal between the
CMS's.

.... Just an input.

:-)

Mads

"Kærlighed er hjertets lethed". - "Love is the lightness of the heart". -
"Liebe ist die Leichtigkeit des Herzens". - "L'amour est la legerèté du
coeur". - "Amor é a leviandade do coração". "Ástin er léttleiki hjartans".
”Asanninneq assersuunneqarsinnaavoq uummatip eqqissiallaffiattut”. Mio
jest lekkoci serca.

Here's something official on the subject:

On Mar 12, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Mads Rasmussen wrote:

> On 12/03/10 11:33 GoLive Talk golive@[Protected] wrote :
>
>
>
> For a long time I've been trying to find an app like Golive.
> But no go(live).
>
> So I considered to go the DW way, but hell no, I will not buy yet
> another
> Adobe app, spending lots dollars to a firm that literally killed the
> very
> best web app ever.
> Investigating a lot of apps I ended on CMS apps, because [----
> Schnipp ---}

Is Drupal the right tool for the job?
Drupal is a very powerful and flexible framework to build virtually
[-----]
Drupal is an excellent choice for any of the following situations:

• You need a site that is [-------]
There are several cases where Drupal may not be the best choice:

• If [-------]

---specialized blogging platforms like WordPress or one of the hosted
blogging solutions. Although Drupal [--etc, etc, etc--]

<http://drupal.org/node/346217>

Doug

On 16/03/10 11:37 GoLive Talk golive@[Protected] wrote :

> Message-Id: <4F93FBB2-ECF5-4EAB-BD26-1D22B9D212B3@[Protected]>
> From: Doug Fairchild <dougfairchild@[Protected]>
> In-Reply-To: <list-8479853@[Protected]>
> Subject: Re: Client Updatable Service/Site?

> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:15:16 -0700
>
> Here's something official on the subject:
>
> On Mar 12, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Mads Rasmussen wrote:
>
>> On 12/03/10 11:33 GoLive Talk golive@[Protected] wrote :
>>
>>
>>
>> For a long time I've been trying to find an app like Golive.
>> But no go(live).
>>
>> So I considered to go the DW way, but hell no, I will not buy yet =20
>> another
>> Adobe app, spending lots dollars to a firm that literally killed the =20=
>
>> very
>> best web app ever.
>> Investigating a lot of apps I ended on CMS apps, because [----=20
>> Schnipp ---}
>
> Is Drupal the right tool for the job?
> Drupal is a very powerful and flexible framework to build virtually =20
> [-----]
> Drupal is an excellent choice for any of the following situations:
>
> =95 You need a site that is [-------]
> There are several cases where Drupal may not be the best choice:
>
> =95 If [-------]
>
> ---specialized blogging platforms like WordPress or one of the hosted =20=
>
> blogging solutions. Although Drupal [--etc, etc, etc--]
>
> <http://drupal.org/node/346217>
>
> Doug=

Hi Doug,

I think, I know what you are pointing out here, with out actually saying
anything :-) (And that's not like you).

My thoughts are simple. If I can master Drupal, I master any thing :-) But
to get there ...

I have a site which I have used for the past 10+ years
(http://www.dursley-pedersen.net - which I started using PageSpinner 1) to
learn new things and in the process improve the site.
Turning it into a community site and then let it go - meaning, let the
people take it over, so it more or less will be site that will be developed
by the users and not me throwing bones to the public.
For this my intentions are to use CMS Made Simple, mediawiki and
SimpleMachine, including the gallery.

So I start out in kindergarten.

I'm fully aware of it will be overkill to use Drupal, when creating Blog
sites, for which Wordpress will be more suite able. And so on. I've spend
more than a year to think this though. What will be right for me? I believe
I found the right solution - for me. As you can understand, I have all the
time in the world at hand.

Drupal I intent to use on another site, that I have maintained for years
now. To convert 3000+ html pages, with 20.000 photos and other files plus
setting it all up, will take some 3-4 years. And then I can let that go too.

All in all, I believe that it will be worth my while to spend time with
Drupal and the other apps, in the long run.

:-)

Mads
By trade, truck driver.
By heart, independent webknitter.

"Sit Bobo, sit".

On Mar 16, 2010, at 7:51 AM, Mads Rasmussen wrote:
[-----]
>>
>> <http://drupal.org/node/346217>
>>
>> Doug=
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> I think, I know what you are pointing out here, with out actually
> saying
> anything :-) (And that's not like you).

You are right. It would not be like me. I apologize if it seemed
sarcastic or anything like that. I was just reading the first part of
the Drupal documentation and thought it made some good points and we
had been talking about CMS, so I thought I'd share it. So I just put
in a few teasers I thought were interesting, and the link to the
actual page.
>
> My thoughts are simple. If I can master Drupal, I master any
> thing :-) But
> to get there ...
>
> I have a site which I have used for the past 10+ years
> (http://www.dursley-pedersen.net - which I started using PageSpinner
> 1) to
> learn new things and in the process improve the site.
> Turning it into a community site and then let it go - meaning, let the
> people take it over, so it more or less will be site that will be
> developed
> by the users and not me throwing bones to the public.
> For this my intentions are to use CMS Made Simple, mediawiki and
> SimpleMachine, including the gallery.
>
> So I start out in kindergarten.

Good idea. So do I.

Actually, the introduction in the Drupal documentation (that page I
gave the link to) made the same point. It actually said that for some
WordPress was probably better.

>
> I'm fully aware of it will be overkill to use Drupal, when creating
> Blog
> sites, for which Wordpress will be more suite able. And so on. I've
> spend
> more than a year to think this though. What will be right for me? I
> believe
> I found the right solution - for me. As you can understand, I have
> all the
> time in the world at hand.

Yes, well, you Vikings probably just sit around mending your sails and
sharpening your swords anyway.
>
> Drupal I intent to use on another site, that I have maintained for
> years
> now. To convert 3000+ html pages, with 20.000 photos and other files
> plus
> setting it all up, will take some 3-4 years. And then I can let that
> go too.

(Laff)
>
> All in all, I believe that it will be worth my while to spend time
> with
> Drupal and the other apps, in the long run.

Yeah, me too. Here is what I am thinking: When I started doing web
design, all we had was HTML and Frames. Frames were the "new thing",
too. But over the years, so much new technology has appeared that
there is no way I can afford to learn it all piecemeal.

I had gotten so discouraged that I wasn't even promoting new business
anymore. I had tried collaborating with other designers but it never
worked out. I just had to turn down what looked like a lucrative
long term client because I didn't even know what 'Ruby on Rails" was,
and their site was made with it.

Yet, I'm an artist. I have never been able to make enough money with
what they call "fine art" ... painting pictures .. even though I used
to get very good prices .... because it took so long to paint them.
I like design, though, I consider that to be art, too, and I have
made good money with that.

I have had some experience with DotNetNuke ... a Windows based CMS,
and found out that it has rather easy to use ... it has a lot of
modules and themes called "skins" available, but it is also easy
enough and versatile enough to use, that I have just made my own
skins. The available documentation is very poor, though. If I had
not already learned an ASP shopping cart and maintained it for
several years, I might not have been able to figure it out.

But the truth is, I don't like Windows very much. That's just a
personal opinion of mine. And professional level hosting for
DotNetNuke is rather expensive .. twice or more what it looks like
I would have to pay for professional level hosting for Drupal.

Drupal, however, runs on Unix/Apache/Linux ... and I have more
affinity for the Unix environment. Also, Drupal seems to be built on
the same, or at least a similar, concept like DNN. It is not just a
CMS, it is a framework that you can fit thing into. At least that's
what they say. I have not gotten that far into my reading yet to
know for sure.

But it looks like to me, that except for creating content in Flash
and things of that sort, I can offer a much broader range of
technologies with its many modules than I am able to do by trying
to piece together things myself.

Another thing ... every CMS seems to have a rather dedicated
following, in a way like GoLive used to. So maybe that will help me
compete a little better. We'll see.

I get the idea that although Drupal is good for big sites, that you
don't have to have a big site for it to be a good choice. I don't
know, but I intend to find out.

.... Doug

Thanks for saying what you did above Mads. I hope this clears it
up. You have been one of my favorites since the beginning.

>
> :-)
>
> Mads
> By trade, truck driver.
> By heart, independent webknitter.
>
> "Sit Bobo, sit".

On 16 Mar 2010, at 17:20, Doug Fairchild wrote:
>
> You are right. It would not be like me. I apologize if it seemed sarcastic or anything like that.

Nah, don't worry about that.

It was more unintelligible than sarcastic, so not a problem...


;-)


--
regards

Miles

On 16-Mar-10, at 1:20 PM, Doug Fairchild wrote:

> I get the idea that although Drupal is good for big sites, that
> you don't have to have a big site for it to be a good choice. I
> don't know, but I intend to find out.

I'm sorry, guys. I didn't at all mean to imply anything negative
about Drupal, or to suggest in any way that WP was 'da bomb': it
clearly is not.

If you have a long-term view of this, and want to learn basically one
thing, then yes, Drupal would probably be the way to go (I know there
are Joomla users, and any other of the myriad CMS's out there,
but...) Drupal is not "impossible" by any means (I mean... *I* got a
handle on it, so...) and once you know it, big sites/small sites, it's
all good. It might indeed be overkill for a brochure site if one were
to have to learn the CMS, but if you already know it, who cares?

To make a long story short: yeah, Drupal is definitely a worthwhile
long-term time/effort investment.

--
John Snippe

> To make a long story short: yeah, Drupal is definitely a worthwhile
> long-term time/effort investment.

Sorry to keep asking the same question: Why? What can you do with Drupal
that you cannot do with WP?

Lynne

At 11:22 -0800, 16/3/10, Lynne Arnold wrote:
>Sorry to keep asking the same question: Why? What can you do with Drupal
>that you cannot do with WP?

Drupal is a real CMS that allows you to do just about everything.
It's apparently also considerably more complex and difficult to set
up.

This article compares WordPress, Drupal and Expression Engine:
<http://www.thesitewizard.com/general/wordpress-vs-drupal-vs-expression-engine.shtml>

I went with Textpattern, but Expression Engine was my 2nd choice.
It's very flexible and doesn't require knowledge of PHP like e.g.
Drupal.


Martin

> Drupal is a real CMS that allows you to do just about everything.
> It's apparently also considerably more complex and difficult to set
> up.
>
> This article compares WordPress, Drupal and Expression Engine:
> <http://www.thesitewizard.com/general/wordpress-vs-drupal-vs-expression-engine
> .shtml>

Thanks for the link. Regarding Drupal it says:

ii. You know how to write PHP programs. Yes, you read it right -- knowledge
of PHP is mandatory.

iii. You are willing to devote time to deciphering the Drupal source code.
(Remember, this is someone else's code, so deciphering it takes more time
and effort than figuring out your own.)

I definitely am not going to be writing my own PHP code, so that's a deal
breaker.

Lynne

I am a little puzzled by the almost total absence of any references to
Joomla in this discussion.

I have used it for some time and, while there is a definite learning
curve, found it quite flexible and fairly easy to grasp.

Certainly I found it intuitively easier to relate to than Drupal. Word
Press I admire as a Blog tool but have not really explored the wider
possibilities,

There is also an intriguing application called Artisteer which enables
you to create your own templates for all 3 applications as well as
Blogger and even HTML pages.

I find my biggest problem is making a decision re which direction to
take and therefore continuously flirt with all of them instead of
making a passionate attempt to forge a committed relationship with
just one.

For the moment my favourite applications of choice have become Rapid
Weaver on the Mac (no really straightforward CMS options but a
brilliant site building tool) and Joomla on both Mac and Win if full
CMS is needed.

DW still gets a look in but mainly for down and dirty maintenance of
old sites.

Tony R



On 17 Mar 2010, at 01:43, Lynne Arnold wrote:

>> Drupal is a real CMS that allows you to do just about everything.
>> It's apparently also considerably more complex and difficult to set
>> up.
>>
>> This article compares WordPress, Drupal and Expression Engine:
>> <http://www.thesitewizard.com/general/wordpress-vs-drupal-vs-expression-engine
>> .shtml>
>
> Thanks for the link. Regarding Drupal it says:
>
> ii. You know how to write PHP programs. Yes, you read it right --
> knowledge
> of PHP is mandatory.
>
> iii. You are willing to devote time to deciphering the Drupal source
> code.
> (Remember, this is someone else's code, so deciphering it takes more
> time
> and effort than figuring out your own.)
>
> I definitely am not going to be writing my own PHP code, so that's a
> deal
> breaker.
>
> Lynne

Just to muddy the waters, if you are considering a high-end, PHP-based CMS like Drupal you owe it to yourself to also consider SilverStripe (silverstripe.org).

Warren

On Mar 17, 2010, at 1:02 AM, tony riley wrote:

> I am a little puzzled by the almost total absence of any references to Joomla in this discussion.

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<font face="Verdana">I have never felt comfortable focusing on only one
CMS - as they all have advantages and disadvantages. I think the
clients needs should dictate the choice.<br>
<br>
I agree that joomla is easier to negotiate as a developer then drupal
(although it is much easier for the end user to create content in
drupal), but drupal does have some capabilities that none of the rest
have. I use it on one large site because it is superior in handling
permissions (who gets to do what on different parts of the site). But -
believe me - I have pulled my hair out numerous times trying to figure
out the terminology and approach of this system.<br>
<br>
Fortunately there are a lot of very well done (and free) tutorials
available on drupal - so it is getting easier.<br>
<br>
I tried silverlight in its earlier stages and failed&nbsp; to see what
people were excited about. Perhaps it has grown since then and I should
take another look.<br>
<br>
Rick<br>
<br>
</font><br>
Warren Keuffel wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:list-8496926@[Protected]" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Just to muddy the waters, if you are considering a high-end, PHP-based CMS like Drupal you owe it to yourself to also consider SilverStripe (silverstripe.org).

Warren

On Mar 17, 2010, at 1:02 AM, tony riley wrote:

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I am a little puzzled by the almost total absence of any references to Joomla in this discussion.

</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->

--
This list is a free service of LassoSoft: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.LassoSoft.com/">http://www.LassoSoft.com/</a>
Search the list archives: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ListSearch.com/GoLive/Browse/">http://www.ListSearch.com/GoLive/Browse/</a>
Manage your subscription: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ListSearch.com/GoLive/">http://www.ListSearch.com/GoLive/</a>



</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>
<P><PRE>--

>I have never felt comfortable focusing on only one CMS - as they all
>have advantages and disadvantages. I think the clients needs should
>dictate the choice.

True, so I'll mention another special option for people on this list.

A few days ago, Patrice Oliver-Wilson offered a preview of a CMS she had
created to another list member if he contacted her off-list. I was
curious, and also asked for a look. It has some very nice features, and
can be branded to your own company.

Patrice went far beyond just giving me a look--she volunteered to
install a few sample pages on my server so I could play with it myself.

She's willing to share this with others on this list on two different bases:

1. A free teaching mode to those on this list.

2. Packages to list members who don't feel comfortable messing with php
and mysql and would like to partner.

So you might want to contact Patrice off-list if interested.

Craig

On 17-Mar-10, at 3:16 PM, Craig de Fasselle wrote

> A few days ago, Patrice Oliver-Wilson offered a preview of a CMS she
> had
> created to another list member if he contacted her off-list. I was
> curious, and also asked for a look. It has some very nice features,
> and
> can be branded to your own company.

I was that other list member, and yes, Patrice has a very elegant
minimalist solution.

--
John Snippe

John Snippe wrote:
>
> I was that other list member, and yes, Patrice has a very elegant
> minimalist solution.
>
My answer to another listeroo who got to see the system:


We all owe one another on gl list...that is why we are still here.. it's
truly a unique community. I am humbled that these great minds have
tolerated me for 13 years... that is said in all sincerity... so if now,
I have figured out some small thing that these folks want to know about,
hey, it's my turn to be helpful...

--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

On 17/03/10 11:38 GoLive Talk golive@[Protected] wrote :

> Message-Id: <F5D1E69E-1B6E-4DAC-B3F6-52BD47B18CB6@[Protected]>
> From: Doug Fairchild <dougfairchild@[Protected]>
> In-Reply-To: <list-8494244@[Protected]>
> Subject: Re: Client Updatable Service/Site?
> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:20:53 -0700
>


Sorry for this late reply, I've been ill and haven't had my Mac opened for
days. Yeah, I'm been that poorly ;-)


> I apologize if it seemed sarcastic or anything like that.

Not at all!!

> Yes, well, you Vikings probably just sit around mending your sails and
> sharpening your swords anyway.

That's because we plan a new viking to Vineland, finishing what Erik the
Red, started some 1000 years ago. So watch out. Our sails are strong and our
swords are sharp - and my arm is sore form mending.


>
> Yet, I'm an artist. I have never been able to make enough money with
> what they call "fine art" ... painting pictures .. even though I used
> to get very good prices .... because it took so long to paint them.

Artists makes the world go around. Every one says it's money, but I don't
believe it.

>
> But the truth is, I don't like Windows very much. That's just a
> personal opinion of mine.

You are not alone, not alone.

> Drupal, however, runs on Unix/Apache/Linux ... and I have more It is not
just a
> CMS, it is a framework that you can fit thing into. At least that's
> what they say. I have not gotten that far into my reading yet to
> know for sure.

And they are right. There is a core, and there are bits and pieces to use to
get the machine function, building a VW or a Ferrari. Kind of Lego for the
web.
Only thing is, that one has to learn a bunch of new apps for each feature.
Still it's something like GL - Actions and Extensions.
But the great way that GL is working, no app I've seen so far doesn't
replace it.
When I wind the lottery, I'll buy GL from Adobe and hire Jens Neffe and the
rest of the gang - then I - then ... ;-))


>
> I can offer a much broader range of
> technologies with its many modules

The advantages are that they work form the same principle as a base, the
disadvantage is the lack of documentation and one has to attend a forum
asking the very same question as many others have in the past. On the other
hand I have found very nice and friendly help in those fora

>
> Another thing ... every CMS seems to have a rather dedicated
> following, in a way like GoLive used to.

I still use GL as my main app. In some reduced form though. Those WYCIWYG
text editors offered like TinyMCE is no good. And site structure etc. is a
city in Mambuzoland.

> I hope this clears it up.

No need for clearing up, I see now that I understood you perfectly. So I
don't agree with Miles.

> You have been one of my favorites since the beginning.
THIS I take as a big compliment.
And I hereby return it.

Quote - John Snippe (a man that lives on water, *has* to be trusted ;-) ):
- Drupal is not "impossible" by any means (I mean... *I* got a
handle on it, so...)
- To make a long story short: yeah, Drupal is definitely a worthwhile
long-term time/effort investment.

http://www.silverstripe.org and http://expressionengine.com/
Those I have to investigate a bit - later on. I might discover that with CMS
MadeSimple, for starters, I made the wrong choice ;-)
But what the heck, that's life.

:-)

Mads

A HTML-dinosaur
(Those were the happy days, life was simple and all you had to know were how
to nest tables, as the most sophisticated).

"Kærlighed er hjertets lethed". - "Love is the lightness of the heart". -
"Liebe ist die Leichtigkeit des Herzens". - "L'amour est la legerèté du
coeur". - "Amor é a leviandade do coração". "Ástin er léttleiki hjartans".
”Asanninneq assersuunneqarsinnaavoq uummatip eqqissiallaffiattut”. Mio
jest lekkoci serca.

On 20-Mar-10, at 10:36 AM, Mads Rasmussen wrote:
> http://www.silverstripe.org and http://expressionengine.com/
> Those I have to investigate a bit - later on. I might discover that
> with CMS
> MadeSimple, for starters, I made the wrong choice ;-)
> But what the heck, that's life.

Gotta throw this one out there too: FrogCMS ( http://
www.madebyfrog.com/ ) Worked with it for a while, and it was pretty
good. Stopped using it because I had a particular need it couldn't
fill, and never got back to it. May do that now that it has come back
to mind. It was fairly straightforward, as I recall.

--
John Snippe

On Mar 20, 2010, at 11:37 AM, John Snippe wrote:

> On 20-Mar-10, at 10:36 AM, Mads Rasmussen wrote:
>> http://www.silverstripe.org and http://expressionengine.com/
>> Those I have to investigate a bit - later on. I might discover that with CMS
>> MadeSimple, for starters, I made the wrong choice ;-)
>> But what the heck, that's life.
>
> Gotta throw this one out there too: FrogCMS ( http://www.madebyfrog.com/ ) Worked with it for a while, and it was pretty good. Stopped using it because I had a particular need it couldn't fill, and never got back to it. May do that now that it has come back to mind. It was fairly straightforward, as I recall.

tweet #too many CMS's