on 6/21/00 4:25 PM, Michael O'Neal at mike@[Protected] wrote:

> I'm doing a site that refers to an external style sheet. I'm attempting
> to keep the text small in Netscape and IE...but here's the problem. When
> I've got it looking ok in IE (5...at 92dpi), it looks way too small in
> Netscape. When I set it to look good in Netscape, it looks huge in IE,
> and on the PC. One side question: do I leave the font size to default
> on the individual pages, or do I size them as well?
>
> Are there any "universal" settings that people are using?

Search the archives on this...

There is at least one Action available that will allow you to have different
style sheets for different browsers.

Ken Martin


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hi,

I'm doing a site that refers to an external style sheet. I'm attempting
to keep the text small in Netscape and IE...but here's the problem. When
I've got it looking ok in IE (5...at 92dpi), it looks way too small in
Netscape. When I set it to look good in Netscape, it looks huge in IE,
and on the PC. One side question: do I leave the font size to default
on the individual pages, or do I size them as well?

Are there any "universal" settings that people are using?


Thanks,

mto

*----------------*

Michael O'Neal
Web Producer/
Autocrosser

STR 28 - 89 Civic Si

M A N G O:
B O U L D E R

www.thinkmango.com

* relevant contact info *
*---------------------*
mike@[Protected]
303.442.1821
303.938.8507



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>on 6/21/00 4:25 PM, Michael O'Neal at mike@[Protected] wrote:
>
>> I'm doing a site that refers to an external style sheet. I'm attempting
>> to keep the text small in Netscape and IE...but here's the problem. When
>> I've got it looking ok in IE (5...at 92dpi), it looks way too small in
>> Netscape. When I set it to look good in Netscape, it looks huge in IE,
>> and on the PC. One side question: do I leave the font size to default
>> on the individual pages, or do I size them as well?
>>
>> Are there any "universal" settings that people are using?
>
>Search the archives on this...
>
>There is at least one Action available that will allow you to have different
>style sheets for different browsers.
>
>Ken Martin


... and if you want quick and dirty, use Verdana at 10 or 11 px for
body text. Works for me every time, regardless of what the Browser/

And make sure you are not forgetting to give it a TD tag if you are
using tags. I have kind of quit those and use classes myself.
Classier, you know.


Best regards,


Doug
--



Douglas Fairchild POB 393 North Highlands, CA 95660 (916) 338-2601

<http://www.traderdoug.com>


"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his
life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the
last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such
devotion." .... Ibid










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Hi Arnold

<spam-warning>
We have an action for that http://out.to/actions/final/css_link
</spam-warning>
There is also one by Matt Ridley...but ours is superior ;-)
Please look at the documentation/manual of both actions. There are some
tricky implications.

Arnold Gregory wrote:
>
> Is it possible to link a page to different external style sheets
> depending on which platform and browser is being used as a client? It
> would be, I suppose, a java script that in plain English says
> if browser is Mac Netscape 4+ link to stylesheet1
> if browser is Win Explorer 4+ link to stylesheet2
>
> We are trying to implement CSS but are seeing drastic differences in
> appearance from client to client.
>
> Is there a tutorial somewhere that addresses the different ways
> browsers implement stylesheets and ways to accomodate all of them?

--

Kind regards,

Oliver Zahorka
OUT Media Design GmbH
<mailto:oli@[Protected]> <http://www.out.to>

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Arnold -
I have three different suggestions. First, read the tutorial below this
message, which I wrote to the list several months ago. I have gotten this
method to work in all browsers that have basic support for CSS1. The site I
developed it on is <http://jcomm.uoregon.edu>. If you look in the source
code of any page you'll find some <div> or <span> tags referencing a simple
external style sheet I created at <http://jcomm.uoregon.edu/stylesheet.css>,
which you may have to view in Internet Explorer. You can just copy this
style sheet and modify the colors for your own site.

Second, you will find many other posts on this exact topic if you search the
list archives at <http://listsearch.blueworld.com/golivetalksearch.lasso>.
Third, check out one of the best CSS tutorial and reference sites,
<http://www.westciv.com/style_master/house/index_dynamic.html>.

Below is my tutorial for varying link colors within the same page. (The
original recipient wanted both white and blue links.) Good luck.
- Josh

<!-- Begin Tutorial -->

Whenever you want to have multiple link colors on the same page, a simple
style sheet is the best solution. Even if you haven't tried CSS yet, this
is easy.

You need a separate CSS "class" for every different section of links. In
your case, that's two sections - white links and blue links. Since you're
apparently comfortable with source mode, use that for starters. To style
each section, enclose them separately within <div></div> tags and use the
"class" attribute. For instance:

Top links:
<div class="linkstyle1"><p>
<a href="link1.html">Link 1</a>
<a href="link2.html">Link 2</a>
</p></div>

Bottom links:
<div class="linkstyle2"><p>
<a href="link3.html">Link 3</a>
<a href="link4.html">Link 4</a>
</p></div>

If "class" doesn't work for you, you can also use "span".

Of course, "linkstyle1" and "linkstyle2" are just meaningless names until
you actually set them up in the stylesheet, which can be either internal or
external. I recommend external, because then you can apply it easily to
multiple pages by placing (something like) this tag in the <head> section:

<link href="anything.css" rel="styleSheet" type="text/css">

Your external style sheet (you only need one) is just a plain text file
named "anything.css". For link coloring, it should contain (something like)
the following:

.linkstyle1 a:link { color: white }
.linkstyle1 a:visited { color: white }
.linkstyle2 a:link { color: blue }
.linkstyle2 a:visited { color: blue }

The first item on each line is the name of the class, designated by the
period (use periods in the style sheet, but not in the <div> tag). The
second item is the HTML tag you want to modify - in this case the <a href>
tag. The third item is the tag's attribute - in this case the "link" and
"visited" colors. You could add more attributes, such as "active" or
"hover" (IE only) or "text-decoration" if you want to, putting each on a
separate line. Next, the curly brackets contain whatever property you want
to change. You can use hex codes instead of color names if you want (such
as #0000FF). You can also include multiple properties, separated by a
semicolon. For example, { color: blue ; text-decoration: none } would also
remove the underline for each blue link.

<!-- End Tutorial -->


josh hough - web/computing support
university of oregon school of journalism and communication
http://jcomm.uoregon.edu


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Apologies to Arnold and the list -- I meant to reply to another GoLive/CSS
post and replied to this one by accident. I'll try again...
- Josh



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It depends....
If you want the font, size, etc. for every link, why not put them
into the style?
It is better to do it this way, than to assign the font, ... manually
to every link. And you can change the font, ... setting faster this
way, you only have to change it at one place.

>When applying a style to a link, as in hover, visited, etc. is it a good
>idea to define the style and include the font, size, etc., or just the
>simple link color and decoration option only?
>Thanks.
>
>Eric Martin
>eric@[Protected]
>

Yours
Jens V.


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> I am reworking our site with css. It seems to me that I should be able
> to specify font and link color with simple tags. Is that true? Am I
> labeling them wrong?
>
> <link>
> <alink>

A:link { font-style: italic }
A:active { font-style: italic }
A:visited { font-style: italic }

Of course, put any formatting you want in there.

Frank.

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web devil will suck a whole website - comnplete with all folders - even ones
not in use. you can find it at any shareware site like
http://www.macdownloads.com

>
> I often learn by viewing the page source of sites I admire (nothing unique, I
> know). Is there a way to view site's style sheet? For example, when I see an
> href to a .css, is there a way that I can view it? Thanks.
>
> Gloria
> http://www.gloriahansen.com
>
>
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>I often learn by viewing the page source of sites I admire
>(nothing unique, I know). Is there a way to view site's
>style sheet? For example, when I see an href to a .css,
>is there a way that I can view it? Thanks.


Sure is. Just complete the URL with the info you can get
from the path to the CSS, then hit return. The CSS file
will download, then just drag this onto GoLive (or open
it through File > Open) and you'll be able to study it.


cheers,
Richard

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I often learn by viewing the page source of sites I admire (nothing unique, I know). Is there a way to view site's style sheet? For example, when I see an href to a .css, is there a way that I can view it? Thanks.

Gloria
http://www.gloriahansen.com


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>I often learn by viewing the page source of sites I admire (nothing
>unique, I know). Is there a way to view site's style sheet? For example,
>when I see an href to a .css, is there a way that I can view it? Thanks.
>
>Gloria

Just plug the URL of the style sheet into your browser address window, and
hit "enter". It will display the contents of the style sheet.

Of course, you might have to do a little extrapolating to determine the
full address, if the stlye sheet URL is only listed as a relative link in
the source. .

----------------------------------------------------------
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer
Communications Services
Division of Student Affairs
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182

(619) 594-1046
keith.parks@[Protected]
http://www.sdsu.edu

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(Objects on your screen may be closer than they appear)



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>I often learn by viewing the page source of sites I admire (nothing
>unique, I know). Is there a way to view site's style sheet? For example,
>when I see an href to a .css, is there a way that I can view it? Thanks.
>
>Gloria
>http://www.gloriahansen.com


Hi Gloria,

just use the absolute URL, that often works

as in http://www.domain.com/stylesheet.css

or whatever the .css is called

Derry

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for viewing css files, you need explorer. netscape wont do it. for example, to view my CSS, (in
IE) click

http://NetPaths.net/netpaths.css

also, you will need to do this if you are making updates to the css file and want to see changes.
IE caches the CSS and wont show any updates unless you reload it specifically

--


Cayley Vos, Principal

360.714.8395 office
360.223.7799 cell

http://NetPaths.net
_______________________________
web design | e-commerce | i-marketing



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At 03:44 PM 6/12/01 -0700, you wrote:
>for viewing css files, you need explorer. netscape wont do it. for
>example, to view my CSS, (in
>IE) click
>
>http://NetPaths.net/netpaths.css
>
><snip>
>Cayley Vos, Principal

not so, cayley. netscrap 4.08 and netscrap 6/6.01 will. btw, so will opera
5.11
-jim donaldson

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If you're using a Mac, then just use the "Web download" (or download page
GL5) feature under the file menu.

It downloads the page, images and .css file of the page.

Andrew
--
andrew@[Protected]

http://www.nanyo.net - bilingual portal site
http://www.nanyo.net/design - web design
http://www.nanyo.net/e/cafe - Internet cafe


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On 07/01/02 6:30 Jack Rodgers <jackrodgers@[Protected]> tapped the
following :

Hi Jack,


>
> I am taking a big step into the world of high powered web page design using
> GoLive by trying to use a style sheet. !!!!
>
> I am applying white to H3, normal text and the text inside a table, dr, I
> believe it is.

No, it's not dr, it's TD=single table cell. TR=table row.

>
> Whew. What an effort to discover how this works...
>
> Anyway, using a black background and having the text whited automatically
> saves me some time.

Set the background color in the Table Inspector.

Otherwise set the background color in the declarations.

>
> I am using one table on the page and all of the text will be inside the
> table. So my concern is will this work OK in all but a few browsers and
> which would those be.


Declare the TD with a white font color and and background as black. That
should do it. That way you will hit any font color as white within a table
cell.

To be sure, you can declare the H3 as font color white as well.

Visit the House of Style http://www.westciv.com/ to see which browser
supports what.
There sure is a tremendous difference browser which browser implement the
different elements of CSS1 and CSS2.

HTH

:-)

Mads


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Hi Jim,

I suggest you do yourself a favor and put a focused couple hours on a
CSS tutorial. I believe you will see a good return on the time
investment. All this will become very clear to you.

This one is hard to beat. http://www.w3schools.com/css/

I put it off for months... OK years, but I am glad I finally did it.
It is much less involved than I thought to get the basics. A basic
understanding of how CSS works makes the GoLive interface for CSS a
lot more comfortable but now I usually prefer to create extensive
style sheets by hand. It's quicker for me.

Just my .02

Arn

>Derry,
>
>Thanks for your reply. This does help, sorta. I'm unsure how to implement
>this within GL. Do I create two separate classes, one regular text and one
>for the hover? and assign both to the desired text? Also, how is the hover
>attribute used within GL? I've been monkeying around but don't get the
>desired effect.
>
>If it makes any difference I'm using an external style sheet.
>
>Thanks,
>Jim

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> From: Jim Schroeder <macguy@[Protected]>
>
> Ok, I have been trying to figure out how to implement the following CSS:
>
> Normal view of linked text shows no underline (have already done this)
> Moused over view of linked text changes to bold and underlined and perhaps a
> change in color (would like to implement this)
>
> Does anyone know how to accomplish this in GL6? I assume that it is
> something I need to add in the CSS tab's "Other Properties" section.
>
With an external style sheet open and the CSS Definitions tab selected in
GL6, create a "New Element Style" for a, a:link, a:visited, a:hover,
a:active, and assign attributes like this (random example):

a {
color: #036;
font-weight: bold;
text-decoration: none;
}
a:link {
color: #036;
}
a:visited {
color: #933;
}
a:hover {
color: #624c77;
text-decoration: underline;
background-color: #eee;
}
a:active {
color: #933;
}

You can make these assignments in the GL6 Inspector palette, or select the
Source tab with the style sheet open and key in as shown above.

HTH

--
Lowell Allen


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Derry,

Thanks for your reply. This does help, sorta. I'm unsure how to implement
this within GL. Do I create two separate classes, one regular text and one
for the hover? and assign both to the desired text? Also, how is the hover
attribute used within GL? I've been monkeying around but don't get the
desired effect.

If it makes any difference I'm using an external style sheet.

Thanks,
Jim

> Subject: Re: CSS Question
> From: "Derry Thompson" <derry@[Protected]>
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:31:44 +0100
>
> on 29/7/02 07:23, Jim Schroeder at macguy@[Protected] wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know how to accomplish this in GL6? I assume that it is
>> something I need to add in the CSS tab's "Other Properties" section.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jim
>
>
> Something like
>
> a:hover { color: red; font-style: normal; font-weight: bold; font-size:
> 11px; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, Swiss,
> SunSans-Regular; text-decoration: underline }
>
> Would do it. You can use "decoration" to add underlining and weight to add
> bold.
>
> HTH
>
> --
> Derry Thompson
> derry@[Protected]
> http://www.GloDerWorks.com

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on 29/7/02 07:23, Jim Schroeder at macguy@[Protected] wrote:

> Does anyone know how to accomplish this in GL6? I assume that it is
> something I need to add in the CSS tab's "Other Properties" section.
>
> Thanks,
> Jim


Something like

a:hover { color: red; font-style: normal; font-weight: bold; font-size:
11px; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, Swiss,
SunSans-Regular; text-decoration: underline }

Would do it. You can use "decoration" to add underlining and weight to add
bold.

HTH

--
Derry Thompson
derry@[Protected]
http://www.GloDerWorks.com



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I did finally get it to work (thanks for the help). One element style will
format the text for the entire page (obviously), and in this scenario I was
able to create a test page where the hover worked as expected.

But, I'm not sure that I can get this to do what I want. My problem is that
I have several font sizes on the same page. It is this reason that I do all
of my text formatting with classes, so I can have different font sizes and
colors on the same page. My question is, is it possible to get a hover to
work using classes? This is what I really need.

Thanks again,
Jim

> With an external style sheet open and the CSS Definitions tab selected in
> GL6, create a "New Element Style" for a, a:link, a:visited, a:hover,
> a:active, and assign attributes like this (random example):
>
> a {
> color: #036;
> font-weight: bold;
> text-decoration: none;
> }
> a:link {
> color: #036;
> }
> a:visited {
> color: #933;
> }
> a:hover {
> color: #624c77;
> text-decoration: underline;
> background-color: #eee;
> }
> a:active {
> color: #933;
> }
>
> You can make these assignments in the GL6 Inspector palette, or select the
> Source tab with the style sheet open and key in as shown above.
>
> HTH
>
> --
> Lowell Allen



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At 10:08 AM -0800 1/10/03, Rogueship wrote:
>I just upgraded to GoLive 6.0, and noticed that on the CSS inspector that
>there is no longer an Area tab in the style header. Unfortunately, I used
>that option frequently in 5.0, now my pages are showing up without any CSS
>formating in 6.0 for the Areas that were formatted. Am I missing something,
>or is there a way around having to re-style a lot of my pages?

The "area" access through the CSS Inspector is still there *sort of*,
but it shows up differently.

Before, the CSS inspector had "span", "par", "div" and "area"
checkboxes as options. The "area" choice is now gone from that list,
but it instead gets invoked when you, for instance, double-click on a
section of text.

Clicking in this way seems to select the entire contents of the area
between whatever enclosing <tag> you are between, and the CSS
inspector changes to show you that tag, and give you the option to
apply your styles to that area.

I'm still a little hazy on how applying a style this way differs from
clicking and dragging to select content, at least from a practical,
"How will it look different?" standpoint.

The "code" difference (I think) is that the style is applied to the
tag itself, rather than in between the tags, but is there a
differrence in the results? It probably depends on the tag and the
style.

So for you, try double-clicking in areas of your pages, and see if
the CSS inspector gives you access to your previously-applied styles
that way.

HTH,

Keith

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Communications Services
Division of Student Affairs
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San Diego, CA 92182

(619) 594-1046
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On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:16:08 -0700, Lynne LaMaster wisely pointed out:

>And, what I want to know is this: Can I make an external stylesheet that
>includes the nav *links*?

No. The integrated CSS copy protection technology prevents such link piracy.
;-)

__
oz

"Moreover, GoLive doesn't like you fiddling with Template code as well."



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> On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:16:08 -0700, Lynne LaMaster wisely pointed out:

(I always appreciate it when you answer me, it makes me feel so...wise!)

; )
>
>> And, what I want to know is this: Can I make an external stylesheet that
>> includes the nav *links*?
>
> No. The integrated CSS copy protection technology prevents such link piracy.
> ;-)

Ok. Sigh.

Are there any other suggestions for this problem? I need to be able to have
a search mechanism which will ignore the links on the page.
>
> __
> oz


Lynne


Lynne LaMaster, ACN, APP
ACE: Photoshop and GoLive
Specialized Publishing
928-778-0401



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On Fri, Dec 5, 2003, it is attributed to Lynne LaMaster to have said:

>Are there any other suggestions for this problem? I need to be able to have
>a search mechanism which will ignore the links on the page.


Sure. Make the website db-integrated, and create a search that checks
specified fields in the db for the search-terms.

--
later,
JS

"Discretion in speech is more than eloquence."
Sir Francis Bacon


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Hiya...!

Here was my problem:

>> I need to be able to have
>> a search mechanism which will ignore the text links and the meta tags on the
page.

I wanted to be able to put links in the external CSS file, but I was
informed that this is not allowed by W3C standards.
>
John Snippe suggested:

> Sure. Make the website db-integrated, and create a search that checks
> specified fields in the db for the search-terms.

Which would have been the best, but for the time being, the client wasn't up
for this particular solution.

Therefore, we had to come up with a different solution, and, well, we did!
So, as a weekend exercise in curiosity, anyone want to take a stab at how we
did it?

Here's the URL if you want to check it out:

http://www.swdurethane.com

I suppose it's a little cumbersome, and not as elegant as DB integration,
but we'll get him to consent to that in a couple of years, I imagine.

I imagine you'll all be able to figure out how we did it, but to the
end-user it's pretty darned seamless. And the client's happy: We've got text
links, lots of meta tags and a specific search function, able to be tweaked
and adjusted easily.



Cheers!

Lynne


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Another thing you didn't ask to check for...
The blue lefthand bar with he links keeps changing its width - is it
supposed to do that? On startpage it is extremely thin, on other pages
wider, but it doesn't keep it's width.

Looked in Safari 1.1.1 in Os X 10.3.1 Panther.

On 2003-12-07, at 00.16, Lynne LaMaster wrote:

> Here's the URL if you want to check it out:
>
> http://www.swdurethane.com
>
>

nini ;-)
___________________________________________
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http://www.ninisworld.com


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One more thing - on startpage not all have dotted underlines - some
have regular underlines. I see no system for which should have which.
This is in Safari. In Explorer 5.2.3 Mac OS X none are dotted.

Also, the pages are extremely wide. But I guess they are supposed to be
like that? If you have anormal width browserwindow open you won't see
what is in the right hand side. At least not in Safari or Explorer on
the Mac. I don't know which displaysize you designed for, but it is
much too wide for most portables and we dont all have widescreens. A
problem with that is that even if you have a wider screen, and you
enlarge the browserwindow to see al that is in the top of the page,
including the search, then the text widens too and you get very long
textlines which become hard to read because of their length. The page
is about 1000 pixels wide if you want to see it all. In my opinion that
is about 300 px too many.

I know. You didn't ask about that, but that is what I saw when looking.

On 2003-12-07, at 00.16, Lynne LaMaster wrote:

> Here's the URL if you want to check it out:
>
> http://www.swdurethane.com
>
>

nini ;-)
___________________________________________
Nini Tjder __ nini.tjader@[Protected]
http://www.ninisworld.com


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I downloaded the site, and it looks like there are floating boxes? Is
that correct? If so, why? It looks simple enough to be set up in five
minutes using tables.


On Wednesday, June 23, 2004, at 09:06 AM, Bob Cohen wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I recently created this page: http://www.abpla.org, which works fine in
> IE but gets trashed in Netscape. Any suggestions as to how to deal
> with
> this issue would be appreciated. Thank you in advance for your kind
> assistance.
>
> Sorry for the double post. When I sent the original e-mail, I forgot
> to
> change the subject, which was "Re:Buying a template and using it?"
>
> Bob
>
>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>> <
>> <
> Chief Executive Officer E :
> bcohen@[Protected]
> b.p.e.Creative W : www.bpecreative.com
> P : 508.384.0405
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> -
> --
> Fine web sites for discriminating companies(tm)
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> -
> --
>
>
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>
Sincerely,

Brian Frank
viva! communications
515.225.2466
brian@[Protected]


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Gets trashed in Firefox too.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Cohen" <bcohen@[Protected]>
To: <golive@[Protected]>
Subject: CSS Question


> Hi,
>
> I recently created this page: http://www.abpla.org, which works fine in
> IE but gets trashed in Netscape. Any suggestions as to how to deal with
> this issue would be appreciated. Thank you in advance for your kind
> assistance.
> Bob

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> that correct? If so, why? It looks simple enough to be set up
> in five
> minutes using tables.

Well. You're right except I wanted experience using floating boxes.
So, the question is how can I make it work with Netscape? Or perhaps
the question is, do floating boxes work with Netscape?

Bob


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On Jun 23, 2004, at 10:29 AM, Bob Cohen wrote:

>> that correct? If so, why? It looks simple enough to be set up
>> in five
>> minutes using tables.
>
> Well. You're right except I wanted experience using floating boxes.
> So, the question is how can I make it work with Netscape? Or perhaps
> the question is, do floating boxes work with Netscape?

I assure you the problem is with Windows IE, because the page displays
the same way (wrong) in Mac Safari, Mac Mozilla, Mac IE, Mac Firefox,
and Windows Firefox. I wish I could tell you how to fix in Windows IE,
but I didn't see the problem when taking a quick look. I'll check it
out more thoroughly when I have more time. I would advise designing so
things appear correctly in the latest version of Netscape (Mozilla),
then checking in Windows IE and adding necessary hacks and workarounds
to correct its display. (If you meant Netscape 4, that's a whole other
question and debate.)

So, to answer your question, "do floating boxes work with Netscape?" --
yes, they work fine with (late versions of) Netscape. The real question
is usually how to make things work with Windows IE.

--
Lowell Allen


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On Wednesday, June 23, 2004, at 09:29 AM, Bob Cohen wrote:

>> that correct? If so, why? It looks simple enough to be set up
>> in five
>> minutes using tables.
>
> Well. You're right except I wanted experience using floating boxes.
> So, the question is how can I make it work with Netscape? Or perhaps
> the question is, do floating boxes work with Netscape?
>
> Bob
>

The problem with using floating boxes with text, are that the text
often times will shift in size, reflow, etc. based on what the end user
is using to view the site. With that in mind, the floating box will
shift as well. If you really want to use floating boxes for that text
on the right side, I would highly recommend making that text a graphic,
but I would still caution you to use floating boxes only when necessary.


Sincerely,

Brian Frank
viva! communications
515.225.2466
brian@[Protected]


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> but I didn't see the problem when taking a quick look. I'll check it
> out more thoroughly when I have more time.

Thanks.

> I would advise designing so things appear correctly in the latest
> version of Netscape (Mozilla), then checking in Windows IE and
> adding necessary hacks and workarounds to correct its display.

Hmmm. Probably a very wise course of action. Thanks. This sounds as
much a political answer as a technical one :-) I'm no fan of M$ but the
truth (sad, though it may be) is that there are way more people browsing
with Explorer than anything else.

> (If you meant Netscape 4, that's a
> whole other question and debate.)

No. I meant 7.x and mozilla

> So, to answer your question, "do floating boxes work with
> Netscape?" -- yes, they work fine with (late versions of)
> Netscape. The real question
> is usually how to make things work with Windows IE.

I'll head back to the drawing board. The thing is, I didn't do anything
fancy. I just used GoLive to create the floating boxes.

Bob


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On Jun 23, 2004, at 11:23 AM, Bob Cohen wrote:

[snip]

>> I would advise designing so things appear correctly in the latest
>> version of Netscape (Mozilla), then checking in Windows IE and
>> adding necessary hacks and workarounds to correct its display.
>
> Hmmm. Probably a very wise course of action. Thanks. This sounds as
> much a political answer as a technical one :-) I'm no fan of M$ but
> the
> truth (sad, though it may be) is that there are way more people
> browsing
> with Explorer than anything else.

I've seen this approach recommended more than once, and it really does
make sense. Probably 95% of standard CSS hacks are to get around
Windows IE problems, and you only need to be aware of a few of those
unfortunate problems to cover most situations.

[snip]

> I'll head back to the drawing board. The thing is, I didn't do
> anything
> fancy. I just used GoLive to create the floating boxes.

I noticed you're specifying lots of padding values. If you're going
back to the drawing board, try starting with both margin and padding
explicitly set to 0 on all those div's (floating boxes), and without
borders on anything. Does the simplified display look the same in
Mozilla and IE? Then as you add values to create spacing, view in both
Mozilla and IE, and you should be able to spot where things go screwy
in IE.

--
Lowell Allen


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> make sense. Probably 95% of standard CSS hacks are to get around
> Windows IE problems, and you only need to be aware of a few of those
> unfortunate problems to cover most situations.

Well I'm willing to accept advice.

> I noticed you're specifying lots of padding values. If you're going
> back to the drawing board, try starting with both margin and padding

You mean I have to solve this for myself :-)

Bob


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> If you really want to use floating boxes for that text
> on the right side, I would highly recommend making that text a graphic,
> but I would still caution you to use floating boxes only when
> necessary.
>
> Brian Frank
>

Isn't there some way to lock text in a floating box, perhaps with hard
returns, etc.? In a lot of cases, it'd be better if the text lines
never changed length.

Stephen Hart
http://eugraph.com

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On Wednesday, June 23, 2004, at 03:01 PM, hart@[Protected] wrote:

>> If you really want to use floating boxes for that text
>> on the right side, I would highly recommend making that text a
>> graphic,
>> but I would still caution you to use floating boxes only when
>> necessary.
>>
>> Brian Frank
>>
>
> Isn't there some way to lock text in a floating box, perhaps with hard
> returns, etc.? In a lot of cases, it'd be better if the text lines
> never changed length.
>
> Stephen Hart
> http://eugraph.com
>

You can force text onto the next line with returns, and that will help
some, but the problem of correct positioning will always remain as long
as you are counting on floating boxes to hold an absolute position. Try
the returns and start testing on different browsers/platforms. If
things still don't look right, I would say that it is time to trash the
floating boxes.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but instead trying to be helpful. I only
use floating boxes when it is the only way to do something, AND I am
unwilling to compromise to come up with a different idea. Using
superfluous floating boxes when tables would suffice is asking for a
large headache. I can understand wanting to try the floating boxes, but
your entire site could have been done by now if you would have skipped
them.

Sincerely,

Brian Frank
viva! communications
515.225.2466
brian@[Protected]


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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Frank" <brian@[Protected]>
To: <golive@[Protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: CSS Question

> I'm not trying to be a jerk, but instead trying to be helpful. I only
> use floating boxes when it is the only way to do something, AND I am
> unwilling to compromise to come up with a different idea. Using
> superfluous floating boxes when tables would suffice is asking for a
> large headache. I can understand wanting to try the floating boxes, but
> your entire site could have been done by now if you would have skipped
> them.

I'm confused. Are you saying that you don't believe in div's? Additionally,
you're assuming that he knows how to build a site with tables.

Personally, I very seldom use tables these days for anything but tabular
data and forms. I am starting to get to the point that I can code a site
just as fast using div's as with tables, and I've done way more sites using
tables. So, I expect to get even faster.

I would not recommend that anyone who is willing to learn to build sites
following standards, to go back to the archaic technique of using tables for
layout. It's sort of like, you gotta start someday.

~Nick Spence
-------------------------------------------------
General Manager & Creative Director
The Marketing Department
Durango, Colorado


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What I am saying, is that building sites using floating boxes when they
are not needed is a sure way to cause problems. That's all.


On Wednesday, June 23, 2004, at 10:35 PM, Nick Spence wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Frank" <brian@[Protected]>
> To: <golive@[Protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 2:20 PM
> Subject: Re: CSS Question
>
>> I'm not trying to be a jerk, but instead trying to be helpful. I only
>> use floating boxes when it is the only way to do something, AND I am
>> unwilling to compromise to come up with a different idea. Using
>> superfluous floating boxes when tables would suffice is asking for a
>> large headache. I can understand wanting to try the floating boxes,
>> but
>> your entire site could have been done by now if you would have skipped
>> them.
>
> I'm confused. Are you saying that you don't believe in div's?
> Additionally,
> you're assuming that he knows how to build a site with tables.
>
> Personally, I very seldom use tables these days for anything but
> tabular
> data and forms. I am starting to get to the point that I can code a
> site
> just as fast using div's as with tables, and I've done way more sites
> using
> tables. So, I expect to get even faster.
>
> I would not recommend that anyone who is willing to learn to build
> sites
> following standards, to go back to the archaic technique of using
> tables for
> layout. It's sort of like, you gotta start someday.
>
> ~Nick Spence
> -------------------------------------------------
> General Manager & Creative Director
> The Marketing Department
> Durango, Colorado
>
>
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Sincerely,

Brian Frank
viva! communications
515.225.2466
brian@[Protected]


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> I'm not trying to be a jerk, but instead trying to be helpful.

Brian, I didn't think you were being a jerk and appreciate you help! :-)

> Using superfluous floating boxes when tables would
> suffice is asking for a large headache.

The point of this exercise was experimenting with floating boxes in a
small way. They've been around for a while and, well . . . gosh, I was
hoping that we were far enough along with the various browsers and that
finally GoLive would behave as its cousins in print media (e.g.,
InDesign or QuarkExpress) where designers can place objects on a page in
a given area with the expectation that it will remain there when the
printer gets his hands on it. :-)

So, I circle around to my original question. Do floating boxes work, and
the answer seems to be: not out of the box, i.e., in the same way as
Quark or InDesign. Back to the drawing board means more than just
rendering the design in tables. It means more research and guess work.
:-( I guess that's why web designers still get paid the big bucks. ;-)

By the way. I'm using v6.x. Does CS handle this any better?

Bob


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> What I am saying, is that building sites using floating boxes
> when they
> are not needed is a sure way to cause problems. That's all.

I understood that and I agree :-). And if this was for an impatient
client or a critical project with very stringent deadlines, the site
would be done with tables.

Bob


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Floating boxes DO work as long as you use them with their limitations.
Floating boxes cannot move along with other things that get compensated
for the variables of the different browsers/screen resolutions/OS/etc.
If you are going to use them, you will have to be happy with what I
call "ballpark positioning"

Bob, I came from the print design world too, and the BIGGEST thing to
try to get used to is designing with those variables in mind. Stick
with it, you'll get there.


On Thursday, June 24, 2004, at 08:25 AM, Bob Cohen wrote:

>> I'm not trying to be a jerk, but instead trying to be helpful.
>
> Brian, I didn't think you were being a jerk and appreciate you help!
> :-)
>
>> Using superfluous floating boxes when tables would
>> suffice is asking for a large headache.
>
> The point of this exercise was experimenting with floating boxes in a
> small way. They've been around for a while and, well . . . gosh, I was
> hoping that we were far enough along with the various browsers and that
> finally GoLive would behave as its cousins in print media (e.g.,
> InDesign or QuarkExpress) where designers can place objects on a page
> in
> a given area with the expectation that it will remain there when the
> printer gets his hands on it. :-)
>
> So, I circle around to my original question. Do floating boxes work,
> and
> the answer seems to be: not out of the box, i.e., in the same way as
> Quark or InDesign. Back to the drawing board means more than just
> rendering the design in tables. It means more research and guess work.
> :-( I guess that's why web designers still get paid the big bucks. ;-)
>
> By the way. I'm using v6.x. Does CS handle this any better?
>
> Bob
>
>
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>
Sincerely,

Brian Frank
viva! communications
515.225.2466
brian@[Protected]


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> Bob, I came from the print design world too, and the BIGGEST thing to
> try to get used to is designing with those variables in mind. Stick
> with it, you'll get there.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Bob


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At 8:33 AM -0500 6/24/04, Brian Frank wrote:
>Floating boxes DO work as long as you use them with their
>limitations. Floating boxes cannot move along with other things that
>get compensated for the variables of the different browsers/screen
>resolutions/OS/etc. If you are going to use them, you will have to
>be happy with what I call "ballpark positioning"
>
>Bob, I came from the print design world too, and the BIGGEST thing
>to try to get used to is designing with those variables in mind.
>Stick with it, you'll get there.

By the way ...

If you still have inDesign 2.x, you can design pretty much like you
would for print, and then export as HTML, choosing the CSS layout,
which is Floating Boxes.

The main thing you have to watch out for, in my experience, is to use
only web fonts (the ones that are in the canned font families in the
GoLive CSS Editor) or convert to outlines when you want to use
another one, so that the text won't reflow on you when people who
don't happen to have WahooDisplayCapsSS1 on their computer look at
your page.


Doug
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<http://www.ThePerfectStick.com>

"Give people more than they expect and do it cheerfully."



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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Cohen" <bcohen@[Protected]>
To: <golive@[Protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: CSS Question


> The point of this exercise was experimenting with floating boxes in a
> small way. They've been around for a while and, well . . . gosh, I was
> hoping that we were far enough along with the various browsers and that
> finally GoLive would behave as its cousins in print media (e.g.,
> InDesign or QuarkExpress) where designers can place objects on a page in
> a given area with the expectation that it will remain there when the
> printer gets his hands on it. :-)

The problem is not with GL--the problem is with the browsers each following
its own version of the standards. IE does not follow the standards well at
all--perhaps the worse.

> So, I circle around to my original question. Do floating boxes work, and
> the answer seems to be: not out of the box, i.e., in the same way as
> Quark or InDesign. Back to the drawing board means more than just
> rendering the design in tables. It means more research and guess work.
> :-( I guess that's why web designers still get paid the big bucks. ;-)

Set your font size and spacing in px and you'll eliminate a lot of
headaches. Unless the user over-rides your sizes, things will show up the
same size from browser to browser.

As I and someone else said yesterday (I think it was), if you will simplify
your page, it would be easier for you and others to help troubleshoot.

~Nick Spence
-------------------------------------------------
General Manager & Creative Director
The Marketing Department
Durango, Colorado


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At 9:12 PM -0600 6/24/04, Nick Spence wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bob Cohen" <bcohen@[Protected]>
>> So, I circle around to my original question. Do floating boxes work, and
> > the answer seems to be: not out of the box,

That's kind of like saying lumber doesn't work "out of the boxcar".
An aborigine might find that the best thing he can achieve with it is
a bonfire, but for a carpenter, it is the material for building a
house.

If you learn the fundamentals, floating boxes work. If you don't,
they don't. There are advantages and disadvantages in both Floating
Boxes (CSS Layers) and Tables/Grids. You can do things with Layers
that you can't do with tables, and you can do some things with tables
that you can't do with Layers.

The trick is to learn how to use each material well. It takes a bit
of study and some practice. GoLive is an excellent tool for building
with both materials ... Layers and Tables ... but you have to learn
how to use GoLive, too. If you do, it is a powerful, professional
tool. For Layers, you'll find the CSS editor in GoLive CS to be
superior to the one GoLive 6.

Doug
--


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<http://www.ThePerfectStick.com>

"Give people more than they expect and do it cheerfully."



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On Jun 23, 2004, at 2:45 PM, Bob Cohen wrote:

>> make sense. Probably 95% of standard CSS hacks are to get around
>> Windows IE problems, and you only need to be aware of a few of those
>> unfortunate problems to cover most situations.
>
> Well I'm willing to accept advice.
>
>> I noticed you're specifying lots of padding values. If you're going
>> back to the drawing board, try starting with both margin and padding
>
> You mean I have to solve this for myself :-)


I had a little time to look closer and I see what the problem is. Your
page -- <http://www.abpla.html/> -- uses an incomplete DOCTYPE, which
causes Windows IE6 to switch into "quirks mode". That is, IE6 uses the
incorrect box model interpretation that previous versions of Windows IE
used, where padding is included within the width value of content
rather than being additional to the width declaration.

You start the div (floating box) with the photo at 166px from the left
and you give it a width of 303px, which puts its right edge at 469px.
You then start the right-side div (with text "The American Board of
Professional...") at 470px and give it a width of 233px, putting its
edge at 703px. A 1px right-side border makes 704px, which is the width
of the top and bottom graphics. The problem occurs because you've added
padding to both div's, the first having "padding-right: 10px;
padding-left: 10px;", and the next div having "padding: 40px 5px 30px;"
(which would put 5px on the right and 5px on the left). The padding
adds 20px to the width of the first div, putting its right edge
(including its 1px border) at 490px -- 20px past where you start the
second div. The second div gets an additional 10px width from having
5px on both sides, putting its right edge at 714px -- 10px past the
704px-wide top and bottom graphics.

IE6 in quirks mode interprets the padding as being contained within the
declared widths, which make the elements line up as you intended. If
you start the page a complete DOCTYPE, IE6 will be in "standards" mode
(an oxymoron for IE6, like the van I saw in Seattle recently identified
as "Microsoft Security") and will render the page with the same
misalignments you saw in Netscape, as shown here --
<http://www.lowellallen.com/abpla/abpla4.html>.

So, to fix, use a complete DOCTYPE so IE6 will render correctly (GoLive
CS will insert a complete DOCTYPE, I recommend using XHTML 1.0
Transitional), and include padding values when calculating dimensions.

HTH

--
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K. Jerry Smith wrote:
> Hi, all.
>
> I've started a new site for a client, and am trying my best to use CSS.
>
> Here's the pickle . . .
> I've searched through a lot of templates, but have been unable to find the
> exact one I want. The one I've been tinkering with is close, but is missing
> one critical element - a head block. I've tried to add one, but have had no
> success.
>
> http://www.appleseedcommunications.com/sc_sen_repub/3_column_css2.html
>
> I'd appreciate it very much if a CSS guru could have a look-see, and let me
> know what I need to add.

I assume by "head block" you mean a masthead-like header that spans the
top of the page. Your content will be pushed down below a head block as
part of the normal flow if you simply define a div to be the head block
and put it first in your code. For example, put the following right
after your opening body tag:

<div style="width: 100%; height: 100px; background-color: #f90;"></div>

You should see an orange block at the top of the page. Your navigation
elements should overlap it since you're absolutely positioning them.
Just change the top coordinate to move them below your header.

I prefer to do this type of layout with a wrapper div which holds
everything else. I can then absolutely position elements within the
wrapper div. See <http://www.sportsedge.com/dev/Communication_Boxes/>
for a layout like yours (with a header) that's done this way.

HTH

--
Lowell Allen

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On Jan 23, 2006, at 8:15 AM, Lowell Allen wrote:

> K. Jerry Smith wrote:
>> Hi, all.
>> I've started a new site for a client, and am trying my best to use
>> CSS.
>> Here's the pickle . . .
>> I've searched through a lot of templates, but have been unable to
>> find the
>> exact one I want. The one I've been tinkering with is close, but is
>> missing
>> one critical element - a head block. I've tried to add one, but have
>> had no
>> success.
>> http://www.appleseedcommunications.com/sc_sen_repub/3_column_css2.html
>> I'd appreciate it very much if a CSS guru could have a look-see, and
>> let me
>> know what I need to add.
>
> I assume by "head block" you mean a masthead-like header that spans
> the top of the page.

[snip...] (BTW, I see John is back on the list)

OTOH, if you did not want your header to span the entire page width,
you could just duplicate the code for your footer div, inserted up
before your "Main Content Window" div, right after your menu lock
image. Then the header would be the same width as the other
center-column sections.

******************************
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer/Web Designer
Student Affairs Communications Services
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182-7444

(619) 594-1046

mailto:kparks@[Protected]
http://www.sdsu.edu
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications
----------------------------------------------------------

World Peace through Cascading Style Sheets.


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> K. Jerry Smith wrote:
>> Hi, all.
>>
>> I've started a new site for a client, and am trying my best to use CSS.
>>
>> Here's the pickle . . .
>> I've searched through a lot of templates, but have been unable to find the
>> exact one I want. The one I've been tinkering with is close, but is missing
>> one critical element - a head block. I've tried to add one, but have had no
>> success.
>>
>> http://www.appleseedcommunications.com/sc_sen_repub/3_column_css2.html
>>
>> I'd appreciate it very much if a CSS guru could have a look-see, and let me
>> know what I need to add.
>
> I assume by "head block" you mean a masthead-like header that spans the
> top of the page.

Yep; I went blank and the term, masthead, escaped me when I wrote the
message. :-)

> Your content will be pushed down below a head block as
> part of the normal flow if you simply define a div to be the head block
> and put it first in your code. For example, put the following right
> after your opening body tag:
>
> <div style="width: 100%; height: 100px; background-color: #f90;"></div>

Done. Changed the background color, and inserted the masthead image.

> You should see an orange block at the top of the page. Your navigation
> elements should overlap it since you're absolutely positioning them.
> Just change the top coordinate to move them below your header.

Ah ha, this is the critical part I was missing. I get it. I'm still thinking
with a table mindset (add a row, and all below automatically move
accordingly). With CSS, I have to make relative adjustments.

> I prefer to do this type of layout with a wrapper div which holds
> everything else. I can then absolutely position elements within the
> wrapper div. See <http://www.sportsedge.com/dev/Communication_Boxes/>
> for a layout like yours (with a header) that's done this way.

I've taken your advice and added the wrapper div. Please explain more about
how you absolutely position elements within it.

Now, it's on to fiddling and tweaking . . . :-)

Thanks, Lowell!!!
Jerry

A P P L E S E E D C O M M U N I C A T I O N S
Complete Marketing Services
http://www.appleseedcommunications.com/



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> [snip...] (BTW, I see John is back on the list)

The John of the patented "Snippe"?

> OTOH, if you did not want your header to span the entire page width,
> you could just duplicate the code for your footer div, inserted up
> before your "Main Content Window" div, right after your menu lock
> image. Then the header would be the same width as the other
> center-column sections.

Even more control. I'm loving it. Thanks for the tip.

Jerry

A P P L E S E E D C O M M U N I C A T I O N S
Complete Marketing Services
http://www.appleseedcommunications.com/



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K. Jerry Smith wrote:
>>K. Jerry Smith wrote:
>>
>>>Hi, all.
>>>
>>>I've started a new site for a client, and am trying my best to use CSS.
>>>
>>>Here's the pickle . . .
>>>I've searched through a lot of templates, but have been unable to find the
>>>exact one I want. The one I've been tinkering with is close, but is missing
>>>one critical element - a head block. I've tried to add one, but have had no
>>>success.
>>>
>>>http://www.appleseedcommunications.com/sc_sen_repub/3_column_css2.html

[snip]

>>I prefer to do this type of layout with a wrapper div which holds
>>everything else. I can then absolutely position elements within the
>>wrapper div. See <http://www.sportsedge.com/dev/Communication_Boxes/>
>>for a layout like yours (with a header) that's done this way.
>
>
> I've taken your advice and added the wrapper div. Please explain more about
> how you absolutely position elements within it.

If you define the wrapper div to have position: relative, then
absolutely positioned elements that are contained within the wrapper div
are positioned in relation to the edges of the wrapper div rather than
in relation to the whole browser viewport. You could then give the
wrapper div a static width and have it be centered in the browser
window, for example, but have absolutely positioned elements within the
wrapper div (like a Menu Machine menu) move with the wrapper div. (And
you no longer need to have a "locking image" to control the Menu Machine
position.)

--
Lowell Allen


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> Yep; I went blank and the term, masthead, escaped me when I wrote the
> message. :-)

Actually, the term "masthead" is usually used for the box (often on
an editorial page or late in a magazine) that lists the owner,
editors, etc. What you're thinking of is called the "flag."

Stephen Hart
http://eugraph.com



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>> Yep; I went blank and the term, masthead, escaped me when I wrote the
>> message. :-)
>
> Actually, the term "masthead" is usually used for the box (often on
> an editorial page or late in a magazine) that lists the owner,
> editors, etc. What you're thinking of is called the "flag."
>
> Stephen Hart
> http://eugraph.com

I need to be more ambiguous. From now on, all elements will be referred to
as "thingies." :-)

Jerry

A P P L E S E E D C O M M U N I C A T I O N S
Complete Marketing Services
http://www.appleseedcommunications.com/



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K. at jerry@[Protected] said on 24/1/06 16:38

>>> Yep; I went blank and the term, masthead, escaped me when I wrote the
>>> message. :-)
>>
>> Actually, the term "masthead" is usually used for the box (often on
>> an editorial page or late in a magazine) that lists the owner,
>> editors, etc. What you're thinking of is called the "flag."
>>
>> Stephen Hart
>> http://eugraph.com
>
>I need to be more ambiguous. From now on, all elements will be referred to
>as "thingies." :-)

Hey!. It's "Oojamaflips". Stick to the standards! ;)

--
Derry Thompson
g l o d e r w o r k s | Design - Hosting - Programming
2005 Webby Worthy Award Winners
<http://www.gloderworks.com>
+ 44 (0) 1562 631430 t
+ 44 (0) 7976 802487 m





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Hey, hey there! This techno-jargon is getting WAY over my head here! ;-)
--
Mark Stevens (Steve) Willis
Webmaster, Tucson, AZ
unpocoloco89511@[Protected]
stevewillis@[Protected]
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On Jan 24, 2006, at 9:54 AM, Derry Thompson wrote:

> K. at jerry@[Protected] said on 24/1/06 16:38
>
>>>> Yep; I went blank and the term, masthead, escaped me when I
>>>> wrote the
>>>> message. :-)
>>>
>>> Actually, the term "masthead" is usually used for the box (often on
>>> an editorial page or late in a magazine) that lists the owner,
>>> editors, etc. What you're thinking of is called the "flag."
>>>
>>> Stephen Hart
>>> http://eugraph.com
>>
>> I need to be more ambiguous. From now on, all elements will be
>> referred to
>> as "thingies." :-)
>
> Hey!. It's "Oojamaflips". Stick to the standards! ;)
>
> --
> Derry Thompson
> g l o d e r w o r k s | Design - Hosting - Programming
> 2005 Webby Worthy Award Winners
> <http://www.gloderworks.com>
> + 44 (0) 1562 631430 t
> + 44 (0) 7976 802487 m
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------
> This list is a free service of OmniPilot Software, Inc.
> http://www.omnipilot.com/
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>> Hey!. It's "Oojamaflips". Stick to the standards! ;)
>>
>> --
>> Derry Thompson

Aha, an epiphany. Thanks for clearing that, Derry. Am I correct to assume
that the past tense of "Oojamaflips" is "Oojamaflops"; i.e., when an
element has been successfully added? (Getting this, Steve?) :-)

Jerry

A P P L E S E E D C O M M U N I C A T I O N S
Complete Marketing Services
http://www.appleseedcommunications.com/



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BRAIN HURTS! ;-)
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Webmaster, Tucson, AZ
unpocoloco89511@[Protected]
stevewillis@[Protected]
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On Jan 24, 2006, at 10:51 AM, K. Jerry Smith wrote:

>>> Hey!. It's "Oojamaflips". Stick to the standards! ;)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Derry Thompson
>
> Aha, an epiphany. Thanks for clearing that, Derry. Am I correct to
> assume
> that the past tense of "Oojamaflips" is "Oojamaflops"; i.e., when an
> element has been successfully added? (Getting this, Steve?) :-)
>
> Jerry
>
> A P P L E S E E D C O M M U N I C A T I O N S
> Complete Marketing Services
> http://www.appleseedcommunications.com/
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------
> This list is a free service of OmniPilot Software, Inc.
> http://www.omnipilot.com/
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On May 17, 2006, at 9:16 AM, Debra Kappmeyer wrote:

> I am new to CSS. Redesigning a page and using CSS for typography only
> (tables for layout). I need to know how to make the last link on
> the left
> hand side of this page (any long line, for that matter)
>
> http://www.viterbo.edu/proofs/folder4/
>
> Wrap and indent, rather than wrap and then stick out to the left.

Your currently creating the spacing on the left with the "text-
indent" spec. This controls the indent on the first line of a
paragraph only.

If you instead created the left spacing with 1 em left padding, then
the first line would indent as well as the wrapped line. But they
would both line up.

To get the "left space plus second line indent" you describe, set the
left padding on .linkcolor1 to 2em, and then set the text-indent to
-1em. This will create the "hanging indent" look.

HTH,

Keith


******************************
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer/Web Designer
Student Affairs Communications Services
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182-7444

(619) 594-1046

mailto:kparks@[Protected]
http://www.sdsu.edu
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications
----------------------------------------------------------

World Peace through Cascading Style Sheets.



--
------------------------------
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At 16:33 -0700, 20/7/07, Terri Chicko wrote:
>http://www.hotniniz.com
>Those are my daughters... so be nice : )

I always try my very best :-)

You need to specifically address the *links* with a rule like so:

#navcontainer ul li a{
padding: 1em;
}

That does the trick at my end.

By the way, it's incredibly easy to play around with your CSS in
real-time using the Firefox web developer extension:
<http://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/60>


Cheers Martin

At 16:33 -0700, 20/7/07, Terri Chicko wrote:
>I'm really stuck on getting a padding on this navigation.

Or even easier you could change your existing rule to...

#navcontainer a { display: block; height: 15px; text-decoration:
none; color: #fff; background: transparent; width: 140px; z-index: 3;
padding: 5px; padding-right: 0; padding-bottom: 5px; border-bottom:
2px groove #c20000; }

Note the padding: 5px instead padding-top: 5px

I would say your CSS is overly complex ;-)


Cheers Martin

Ahhh thank you Martin for the great info... yes I know it is very
overly complicated. I started off with a rapidWeaver layout... and
believe me I've been trimming it back. I still need to remove tons it.
I will do as you pointed out.
I also have a quick and easy question that just eludes me... how can
I get the whole thing to center?
Thanks again... your awesome, and I'll download that extension
Terri




On Jul 20, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Martin Sammtleben wrote:

> At 16:33 -0700, 20/7/07, Terri Chicko wrote:
>> I'm really stuck on getting a padding on this navigation.
>
> Or even easier you could change your existing rule to...
>
> #navcontainer a { display: block; height: 15px; text-decoration:
> none; color: #fff; background: transparent; width: 140px; z-index:
> 3; padding: 5px; padding-right: 0; padding-bottom: 5px; border-
> bottom: 2px groove #c20000; }
>
> Note the padding: 5px instead padding-top: 5px
>
> I would say your CSS is overly complex ;-)
>
>
> Cheers Martin
>
> --

Terri Chicko
terri@[Protected]
Illustration, Graphics and Web Design
www.chickoart.com
www.incense-salishwinds.com
www.the-point-casino.com

At 17:13 -0700, 20/7/07, Terri Chicko wrote:
>I also have a quick and easy question that just eludes me... how can
>I get the whole thing to center?

Not exactly recalling what you had named your outer wrapper, this is
what I use:


body {
text-align: center
}

#wrapper {
text-align: left
margin: auto;
width: 760px
}

That should always center the content in any browser; the width is of
course up to you.


Cheers Martin

I'm actaully going to print this out and post it on the wall... so I
can remember this: )
Thanks again
Terri

On Jul 20, 2007, at 5:19 PM, Martin Sammtleben wrote:

> At 17:13 -0700, 20/7/07, Terri Chicko wrote:
>> I also have a quick and easy question that just eludes me... how
>> can I get the whole thing to center?
>
> Not exactly recalling what you had named your outer wrapper, this
> is what I use:
>
>
> body {
> text-align: center
> }
>
> #wrapper {
> text-align: left
> margin: auto;
> width: 760px
> }
>
> That should always center the content in any browser; the width is
> of course up to you.
>
>
> Cheers Martin
>
> --

Terri Chicko
terri@[Protected]
Illustration, Graphics and Web Design
www.chickoart.com
www.incense-salishwinds.com
www.the-point-casino.com

> I started off with a rapidWeaver layout...

When I was getting started with css, I found good layouts at
<http://www.dynamicdrive.com/>.

BTW, it should be, "This is why you're hot," versus "This is why your hot."

Lynne

hahah... I know, I caught that. I was getting way to into the slang
of it all...It's lyrics from a song... well I think its a song : )
Hell I don't even understand anything I'm writing about : )
I think I have the pages working OK now, but for future projects I'll
look into http://www.dynamicdrive.com/

Thanks Lynne Your the shiznat. hhahahaaa




On Jul 24, 2007, at 12:31 AM, Lynne Arnold wrote:

>> I started off with a rapidWeaver layout...
>
> When I was getting started with css, I found good layouts at
> <http://www.dynamicdrive.com/>.
>
> BTW, it should be, "This is why you're hot," versus "This is why
> your hot."
>
> Lynne
>
>
>
> --

Terri Chicko
terri@[Protected]
Illustration, Graphics and Web Design
www.chickoart.com
www.incense-salishwinds.com
www.the-point-casino.com

At 06:56 -0600, 24/7/08, Nick Spence wrote:
>Is it valid to put two tags in one css statement:
>
>ul a {....}
>?
>
>How about with a class:
>
>.menu ul a {...}
>?

These are all valid, but written like this they are *descendant
selectors*, so the first example only affects a elements *within* uls.

If you want to target all elements/classes no matter where they
occur, you need to separate them with commas:

..menu, ul a, {...}


Cheers Martin

Thanks, that's what I thought. I will look into what my problems were down
the road when I have more time since I managed to get things working.

~Nick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Sammtleben" <martin-sammtleben@[Protected]>
To: "GoLive Talk" <golive@[Protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: CSS Question


> At 06:56 -0600, 24/7/08, Nick Spence wrote:
>>Is it valid to put two tags in one css statement:
>>
>>ul a {....}
>>?
>>
>>How about with a class:
>>
>>.menu ul a {...}
>>?
>
> These are all valid, but written like this they are *descendant
> selectors*, so the first example only affects a elements *within* uls.
>
> If you want to target all elements/classes no matter where they occur, you
> need to separate them with commas:
>
> .menu, ul a, {...}
>
>
> Cheers Martin

On Jul 24, 2008, at 8:56 AM, Nick Spence wrote:

> ul a {....}
> ?
>

I believe all your statements are valid, but it just depends on what
your trying to effect. "ul a {...}" would affect any "a" tag on your
page within a "ul" tag. Normally you would want to put the container
id or class in front of it though so not all the page list elements
are affected the sam..ie "#container ul li a".


<ul>
<li>
<a></a>
</li>
</ul>



> How about with a class:
>
> .menu ul a {...}
> ?
>
> or:
>
> ul.menu a
> ?

both of these are valid, but understand that your referring to 2
different things here....the first example would refer to an element
with a class of menu selecting down from there to the "ul" tag and
then to the "a" tag. ie something like this:

<div class="menu">
<ul>
<li>
<a></a>
</li>
</ul>
</div>


the 2nd would refer to something like this: although I probably would
have written it as .menu li a {....}

<div>
<ul class="menu">
<li>
<a></a>
</li>
</ul>
</div>



When you put a comma between selectors your not following a descending
order anymore. ie #menu, #navmenu, #nav ul li a, .menu {..........}
This would apply the value to 4 different elements.

What does this do? {....}

Terri



On Jul 24, 2008, at 6:36 AM, Dave Miers wrote:

> On Jul 24, 2008, at 8:56 AM, Nick Spence wrote:
>
>> ul a {....}
>> ?
>>
>
> I believe all your statements are valid, but it just depends on what
> your trying to effect. "ul a {...}" would affect any "a" tag on your
> page within a "ul" tag. Normally you would want to put the
> container id or class in front of it though so not all the page list
> elements are affected the sam..ie "#container ul li a".
>
>
> <ul>
> <li>
> <a></a>
> </li>
> </ul>
>
>
>
>> How about with a class:
>>
>> .menu ul a {...}
>> ?
>>
>> or:
>>
>> ul.menu a
>> ?
>

Terri Chicko
terri@[Protected]
Illustration, Graphics and Web Design
www.chickoart.com
www.hotniniz.com
www.incense-salishwinds.com

My first reaction was, "makes Terri a smarty pants", she's picking on
me again. Then it was...hmm is she serious...nah...she's picking on me!
On Jul 24, 2008, at 10:45 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:

> What does this do? {....}

At 7:45 -0700, 24.7.2008, Terri Chicko wrote:
> What does this do? {....}

Just a placeholder for the actual rules like { width: 300px, etc. }

M

Please tell me you didn't count the dots!!!
On Jul 24, 2008, at 10:45 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:

> What does this do? {....}

On 24 Jul 2008, at 15:45, Terri Chicko wrote:

> What does this do? {....}
>

About half as much as this does {........}


It's simply Martin using a shorthand to represent the parameters for
any given definition.

ie.

a {
color: #a90e31;
text-decoration: underline;
}


If you want to gain some insight into the syntax, view your stylesheet
in 'source mode.'

Or get a copy of CSSEdit, where you can have 'WYSIWYG' and source
views displayed simultaneously, much like GL's 'page split' thing or
whatever they called it.




--
regards

Miles A Cruickshank
Flying Solo
<http://www.flyingsolo.co.uk>


Recent projects:

Logo: <http://www.shoplogo.co.uk>
Loretto Training: <http://www.lorettotraining.co.uk>
Form & Space: <http://www.formandspace.co.uk>

WOW... Yes I did count the dots, as a matter of fact. I thought you
all had some secret code thingy dohicker going on.

Bunch of smart arses : )

Terri

On Jul 24, 2008, at 7:52 AM, Miles A Cruickshank wrote:

>
> On 24 Jul 2008, at 15:45, Terri Chicko wrote:
>
>> What does this do? {....}
>>
>
> About half as much as this does {........}
>
>
> It's simply Martin using a shorthand to represent the parameters for
> any given definition.
>
> ie.
>
> a {
> color: #a90e31;
> text-decoration: underline;
> }
>
>
> If you want to gain some insight into the syntax, view your
> stylesheet in 'source mode.'
>
> Or get a copy of CSSEdit, where you can have 'WYSIWYG' and source
> views displayed simultaneously, much like GL's 'page split' thing or
> whatever they called it.
>
>
>
>
> --
> regards
>
> Miles A Cruickshank
> Flying Solo
> <http://www.flyingsolo.co.uk>
>

Terri Chicko
terri@[Protected]
Illustration, Graphics and Web Design
www.chickoart.com
www.hotniniz.com
www.incense-salishwinds.com

read as {your style stuff here....}, eh ?

Barrett

Terri Chicko wrote:
> What does this do? {....}
>
> Terri
>
>
>
> On Jul 24, 2008, at 6:36 AM, Dave Miers wrote:
>
>> On Jul 24, 2008, at 8:56 AM, Nick Spence wrote:
>>
>>> ul a {....}
>>> ?
>>>
>>
>> I believe all your statements are valid, but it just depends on what
>> your trying to effect. "ul a {...}" would affect any "a" tag on your
>> page within a "ul" tag. Normally you would want to put the container
>> id or class in front of it though so not all the page list elements
>> are affected the sam..ie "#container ul li a".
>>
>>
>> <ul>
>> <li>
>> <a></a>
>> </li>
>> </ul>
>>
>>
>>
>>> How about with a class:
>>>
>>> .menu ul a {...}
>>> ?
>>>
>>> or:
>>>
>>> ul.menu a
>>> ?
>>
>
> Terri Chicko
> terri@[Protected]
> Illustration, Graphics and Web Design
> www.chickoart.com
> www.hotniniz.com
> www.incense-salishwinds.com

All this precise technical jargon really turns me on! :-D

Steve
--
Steve Willis
IT Manager/Webmaster
steve@[Protected]
520-327-6077 x108

Gordley Design Group, Inc.
2540 North Tucson Blvd.
Tucson, AZ 85716
http://www.gordleydesign.com

On Jul 24, 2008, at 7:58 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:

> I thought you all had some secret code thingy dohicker going on.

oh to be the fly on the wall when she describes what's wrong with her
car or computer to the
tech.......heehaw.......uhoh...incoming....<buzzz>
On Jul 24, 2008, at 10:58 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:

> secret code thingy dohicker going on.
>
> Bunch of smart arses : )

You should hear it... it's a wonderful chorus of sounds, whistles and
grunts. I do toss in a few dohickers and thingymabobs just to be sure
they really understand. They usually nod and smile as they assure me
they know just what I'm talking about. Funny, my car still make that
noise even though they supposedly fix it. Ill have to find a new
mechanic.



On Jul 24, 2008, at 8:22 AM, Dave Miers wrote:

> oh to be the fly on the wall when she describes what's wrong with
> her car or computer to the
> tech.......heehaw.......uhoh...incoming....<buzzz>
> On Jul 24, 2008, at 10:58 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:
>
>> secret code thingy dohicker going on.
>>
>> Bunch of smart arses : )
>
>
> --

Terri Chicko
terri@[Protected]
Illustration, Graphics and Web Design
www.chickoart.com
www.hotniniz.com
www.incense-salishwinds.com

Well I just hope you DID remember to change your tire air this spring
to summer air...winter air is no good this time of
year.....otherwise....well....I probably shouldn't say :(
On Jul 24, 2008, at 11:29 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:

> You should hear it... it's a wonderful chorus of sounds, whistles
> and grunts. I do toss in a few dohickers and thingymabobs just to be
> sure they really understand. They usually nod and smile as they
> assure me they know just what I'm talking about. Funny, my car still
> make that noise even though they supposedly fix it. Ill have to find
> a new mechanic.

I know the last time I forgot to change my air, it was a disaster. But
the mechanic only charged me $300 to fix it.

Hey, I don't ever remember posting my photo. How did you know that I'm
a blonde? I'm feeling suddenly paranoid. Do you have a spybot attached
to your emails or some other fancy whatyamahigger?



On Jul 24, 2008, at 8:39 AM, Dave Miers wrote:

> Well I just hope you DID remember to change your tire air this
> spring to summer air...winter air is no good this time of
> year.....otherwise....well....I probably shouldn't say :(
> On Jul 24, 2008, at 11:29 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:
>
>> You should hear it... it's a wonderful chorus of sounds, whistles
>> and grunts. I do toss in a few dohickers and thingymabobs just to
>> be sure they really understand. They usually nod and smile as they
>> assure me they know just what I'm talking about. Funny, my car
>> still make that noise even though they supposedly fix it. Ill have
>> to find a new mechanic.
>
>
> --

Terri Chicko
terri@[Protected]
Illustration, Graphics and Web Design
www.chickoart.com
www.hotniniz.com
www.incense-salishwinds.com

Ow....you caught me...how'd you know? But hey I'm reasonable, for $300
I'll tell you where it is ;D....
On Jul 24, 2008, at 11:47 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:

> I know the last time I forgot to change my air, it was a disaster.
> But the mechanic only charged me $300 to fix it.
>
> Hey, I don't ever remember posting my photo. How did you know that
> I'm a blonde? I'm feeling suddenly paranoid. Do you have a spybot
> attached to your emails or some other fancy whatyamahigger?

It's a thing where you put {....Snippe™....} in it.

Doug

On Jul 24, 2008, at 7:52 AM, Miles A Cruickshank wrote:

>
> On 24 Jul 2008, at 15:45, Terri Chicko wrote:
>
>> What does this do? {....}
>>
>
> About half as much as this does {........}
>
>
> It's simply Martin using a shorthand to represent the parameters
> for any given definition.
>
> ie.
>
> a {
> color: #a90e31;
> text-decoration: underline;
> temperature: −273.15 °C
> }

{....Snippe™...}

On Jul 24, 2008, at 8:47 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:

> Hey, I don't ever remember posting my photo. How did you know that
> I'm a blonde?

Ummm, there's this thing called the "interwebs"...

<http://www.chickoart.com/uscopy.jpg>

******************************
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer/Web Designer
Student Affairs Communications Services
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182-7444
(619) 594-1046
mailto:kparks@[Protected]
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications

http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
----------------------------------------------------------

(Objects on your screen may be closer than they appear)

Oh, I forgot about that PHOTO... haahaa. Now my secret is out. My hair
gets darker as I get older... but a blond is a blond forever!


On Jul 24, 2008, at 9:05 AM, Keith Parks wrote:

>
> On Jul 24, 2008, at 8:47 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:
>
>> Hey, I don't ever remember posting my photo. How did you know that
>> I'm a blonde?
>
> Ummm, there's this thing called the "interwebs"...
>
> <http://www.chickoart.com/uscopy.jpg>
>
> ******************************
> Keith Parks
> Graphic Designer/Web Designer
> Student Affairs Communications Services
> San Diego State University
> San Diego, CA 92182-7444
> (619) 594-1046
> mailto:kparks@[Protected]
> http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications
>
> http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> (Objects on your screen may be closer than they appear)
>
>
>
> --

Terri Chicko
terri@[Protected]
Illustration, Graphics and Web Design
www.chickoart.com
www.hotniniz.com
www.incense-salishwinds.com

Jez... I really need to update that site, and the art... holy cow that
stuff is 6 years old.

On Jul 24, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:

> Oh, I forgot about that PHOTO... haahaa. Now my secret is out. My
> hair gets darker as I get older... but a blond is a blond forever!
>
>
> On Jul 24, 2008, at 9:05 AM, Keith Parks wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jul 24, 2008, at 8:47 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:
>>
>>> Hey, I don't ever remember posting my photo. How did you know that
>>> I'm a blonde?
>>
>> Ummm, there's this thing called the "interwebs"...
>>
>> <http://www.chickoart.com/uscopy.jpg>
>>
>> ******************************
>> Keith Parks
>>

Terri Chicko
terri@[Protected]
Illustration, Graphics and Web Design
www.chickoart.com
www.hotniniz.com
www.incense-salishwinds.com

I thought when a blonde dyed her hair dark, it was called Artificial
Intelligence!
--
Steve Willis
IT Manager/Webmaster
steve@[Protected]
520-327-6077 x108

Gordley Design Group, Inc.
2540 North Tucson Blvd.
Tucson, AZ 85716
http://www.gordleydesign.com

On Jul 24, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:

> Oh, I forgot about that PHOTO... haahaa. Now my secret is out. My
> hair gets darker as I get older... but a blond is a blond forever!
>
>
> On Jul 24, 2008, at 9:05 AM, Keith Parks wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jul 24, 2008, at 8:47 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:
>>
>>> Hey, I don't ever remember posting my photo. How did you know that
>>> I'm a blonde?
>>
>> Ummm, there's this thing called the "interwebs"...
>>
>> <http://www.chickoart.com/uscopy.jpg>
>>
>> ******************************
>> Keith Parks
>> Graphic Designer/Web Designer
>> Student Affairs Communications Services
>> San Diego State University
>> San Diego, CA 92182-7444
>> (619) 594-1046
>> mailto:kparks@[Protected]
>> http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications
>>
>> http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> (Objects on your screen may be closer than they appear)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>
> Terri Chicko
> terri@[Protected]
> Illustration, Graphics and Web Design
> www.chickoart.com
> www.hotniniz.com
> www.incense-salishwinds.com

No comment eh? lol :) Well just thought since you were giving away
money...

But your a good sport anyways!

Dave
On Jul 24, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Dave Miers wrote:

> Ow....you caught me...how'd you know? But hey I'm reasonable, for
> $300 I'll tell you where it is ;D....
> On Jul 24, 2008, at 11:47 AM, Terri Chicko wrote:
>
>> I know the last time I forgot to change my air, it was a disaster.
>> But the mechanic only charged me $300 to fix it.
>>
>> Hey, I don't ever remember posting my photo. How did you know that
>> I'm a blonde? I'm feeling suddenly paranoid. Do you have a spybot
>> attached to your emails or some other fancy whatyamahigger?

on 7/24/08 @709, Doug Fairchild wrote:

>It's a thing where you put {....Snippe(TM)....} in it.
>
>Doug

Not recommended, tho, if:

a) you want your code to validate

and/or

b) you want to avoid my good friend Guido

BTW: you REALLY don't wanna meet Guido after I have given him an earful
about ya....

PS: the short form ("Snip(TM)") is the trademarked version. Long form
("Snippe") is licensed under GPL. And of course, "Snippets" is
absolutely off-limits and reserved for personal projects (one of which
is currently 25 yrs old and married!)

--
John Snippe

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terri Chicko" <terri@[Protected]>
To: "GoLive Talk" <golive@[Protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: CSS Question


> What does this do? {....}
>
> Terri
..com/GoLive/

It provides totally unpredictable results, just like so much of my css :-)

~N

At 15:34 -0400, 25/9/08, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:
>So how to I make the sidebar also push "down" the size of the page
>to accommodate all of the side bar content?

It should do that automatically unless you've somehow limited its
height in your CSS. Have you got a sample page?

Cheers Martin

not setting height....

http://fairviewcommunity.com/2008base.php
http://fairviewcommunity.com/2008.css

thanks for looking... :-)

(css will be changing constantly as I test... )


Martin Sammtleben wrote:
> At 15:34 -0400, 25/9/08, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:
>> So how to I make the sidebar also push "down" the size of the page to
>> accommodate all of the side bar content?
>
> It should do that automatically unless you've somehow limited its
> height in your CSS. Have you got a sample page?
>
> Cheers Martin
>


--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

At 15:46 -0400, 25/9/08, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:
>http://fairviewcommunity.com/2008base.php

It seems that the sidebars are positioned absolutely and that's the
reason why the right one exceeds the length. Absolutely positioned
elements are taken out of the flow and don't affect any neighbour
elements.

Usually one would create such a layout by giving the center column
left- and right margins to accommodate the (width of) the sidebars.
Then float the sidebars left and right and forget about absolute
positioning.

Cheers Martin

OK... I'll change absolute.... thanks much... :-)


Martin Sammtleben wrote:
> At 15:46 -0400, 25/9/08, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:
>> http://fairviewcommunity.com/2008base.php
>
> It seems that the sidebars are positioned absolutely and that's the
> reason why the right one exceeds the length. Absolutely positioned
> elements are taken out of the flow and don't affect any neighbour
> elements.
>
> Usually one would create such a layout by giving the center column
> left- and right margins to accommodate the (width of) the sidebars.
> Then float the sidebars left and right and forget about absolute
> positioning.
>
> Cheers Martin
>


--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

didn't seem to make any difference.... :-(




Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:
> OK... I'll change absolute.... thanks much... :-)
>
>>
>>
>
>


--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

At 15:57 -0400, 25/9/08, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:
>OK... I'll change absolute.... thanks much... :-)


I pasted below the rudimentary rules for an example layout using an
overall #container, #sidebar-left, #sidebar-right and #content; no
positioning necessary - should work.


#container {
margin: 10px auto;
padding: 10px;
width: 760px;
}

#sidebar-left, #sidebar-right {
width: 150px;
}

#sidebar-left {
margin-right: 5px;
float: left;
text-align: right;
}

#sidebar-right {
margin-left: 5px;
float: right;
}

#content {
margin: 0 155px;
}


Cheers Martin

At 16:05 -0400, 25/9/08, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:
>didn't seem to make any difference.... :-(

See my follow-up.

Martin

I printed it out and trying to find differences from what I have....
thanks for the help...

Don't see it yet though... but I'll keep looking...


Martin Sammtleben wrote:
> At 16:05 -0400, 25/9/08, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:
>> didn't seem to make any difference.... :-(
>
> See my follow-up.
>
> Martin
>


--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

At 16:15 -0400, 25/9/08, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:
>Don't see it yet though... but I'll keep looking...

Also place the elements in the following order:

<div id="container">
<div id="sidebar-left">blah, blah</div>
<div id="sidebar-right">blah, blah</div>
<div id="content">blah, blah</div>
</div>

Hope you can make sense of it.

Cheers Martin

> http://fairviewcommunity.com/2008base.php
> http://fairviewcommunity.com/2008.css

I'm just a beginner, so maybe I'm missing something: it seems like this is
unnecessarily complicated CSS for such a simple layout.

Also, I've always done CSS that goes from left to right in the html. So
first I would have put the sidebar1 div, then maincontent div and then the
sidebar2 div. What is the advantage to doing it out of order like this?

Lynne

thanks Lynne... me too on beginner....:-)
I am trying to figure out how the side bars influence the full page to
show.... I am not asking the right questions yet...



Lynne Arnold wrote:
>> http://fairviewcommunity.com/2008base.php
>> http://fairviewcommunity.com/2008.css
>>
>
> I'm just a beginner, so maybe I'm missing something: it seems like this is
> unnecessarily complicated CSS for such a simple layout.
>
> Also, I've always done CSS that goes from left to right in the html. So
> first I would have put the sidebar1 div, then maincontent div and then the
> sidebar2 div. What is the advantage to doing it out of order like this?
>
> Lynne
>
>
>
>


--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

> thanks Lynne... me too on beginner....:-)
> I am trying to figure out how the side bars influence the full page to
> show.... I am not asking the right questions yet...

When I was first getting started, I used layouts from dynamicdrive.com and
other sites. Then I monkeyed around with them using CSSEdit which allowed me
to see how each change to the CSS affected the layout.

Regarding the side bars, in my layouts, the page is as long as the longest
column. Is that what you want?

Lynne

yes but the side bar will be driven by database content, hence the
wrinkle...

Lynne Arnold wrote:
>> thanks Lynne... me too on beginner....:-)
>> I am trying to figure out how the side bars influence the full page to
>> show.... I am not asking the right questions yet...
>>
>
> When I was first getting started, I used layouts from dynamicdrive.com and
> other sites. Then I monkeyed around with them using CSSEdit which allowed me
> to see how each change to the CSS affected the layout.
>
> Regarding the side bars, in my layouts, the page is as long as the longest
> column. Is that what you want?
>
> Lynne
>
>
>
>


--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

On Sep 25, 2008, at 3:34 PM, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:

> I have a ton of reference books here but don't know what to look up
> to find the answer, so hopefully, if I can describe what I need to
> do, someone can put a name to it so I can look it up... :-)
>
> CSS with container/wrapper, header, footer, main content and 2 side
> bars. The amount of copy in the main content box determines how
> "tall" the page gets. But in this case, one of the side bars is fed
> from content from database and it's length is variable depending on
> that db record's content. So when it's short, it is fine, but when
> it is a lot of content, the side bar overruns the container and
> footer.
>
> So how to I make the sidebar also push "down" the size of the page
> to accommodate all of the side bar content?


Well there are lots of 3 column solutions out there, but what I do is
isolate the 3 columns from the header and footer for starter so floats
won't be sliding up further. In this case you can add a sub-container
around the sidebars and main content div. Give it 100% width and auto
height. At the very bottom below all the other content, but still
inside the sub-container add a 0 height div with a class to clear
both. What this does is forces the floated sidebars to enlarge the
height of the sub-container if they happen to be longer like they are
in this case. If main content is longer it still pushes it down. You
might note a problem with background colors on the sidebars, which is
because you forgot the hash mark# in front of the color code. However
I would kill the background color on the sidebars and instead put the
color you desire there on the sub-container background and then make
the main content white. It gives sort of the same impression but it's
now liquid vertically for the sidebar colors. In this case however
it's kind of weird with the longer sidebars as this works better when
the main content in the center is longer, which is usually the case. I
think there is a hack for this when you desire different background
colors, but it messes with my mind.

So basically the in methods I use the larger container for sidebar
backgrounds and the 0 height div with a clear both applied at the end
of it which makes the subcontainer as long as the longest of the 3
columns. Where your content varies a lot your life would be much
simpler if you didn't require different color backgrounds. I don'
think you need any of that relative positioning either. I like give my
h1, h2, p tags a 0 margin and paddings as well in tricky layouts. It's
much easier to control backgrounds and text positioning with padding
in the div itself. Basically it's copying the same method by GoLive 8
and 9, not sure about earlier versions, in the CSS object layouts.
This is one of those cases the extra container div they always add is
a good idea I think, which is equivalent to the sub-content div in my
description.

Hi Patrice,

sorry, I forgot a vital bit: the container needs a overflow: auto
or it won't expand with the growing side columns.

I've put up a sample page here:
<http://www.simnet.is/klipklap/golive/three-columns/>


Cheers Martin

Martin Sammtleben wrote:
> Hi Patrice,
>
> sorry, I forgot a vital bit: the container needs a overflow: auto
> or it won't expand with the growing side columns.
>
> I've put up a sample page here:
> <http://www.simnet.is/klipklap/golive/three-columns/>
>
>
> Cheers Martin
>
Thanks Martin....the overflow did the trick, but it's still overrunning
the footer.

Dave's explanation may hold a key though... I'm still noodling it. :-)

Thanks Dave... :-)

--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

On Sep 26, 2008, at 11:12 AM, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:

> Dave's explanation may hold a key though... I'm still noodling
> it. :-)

My solution as follows:

xhtml

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd
">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" />
<title>Fairview Community</title>
<link href="2008.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" />
<!--[if IE 5]>
<style type="text/css">
/* place css box model fixes for IE 5* in this conditional comment */
..thrColAbsHdr #sidebar1 { width: 180px; }
..thrColAbsHdr #sidebar2 { width: 190px; }
</style>
<![endif]--></head>

<body class="thrColAbsHdr">


<div id="container">
<div id="header">
<h1>
<!-- end #header -->
Fairview, North Carolina</h1>
</div>
<div id="subcontainer"><div id="sidebar1">
<h2>Sidebar1 Content</h2>
<p>The background color on this div will only show for the length
of the content. If you'd like a dividing line instead, place a border
on the left side of the #mainContent div if it will always contain
more content. </p>
<p>Donec eu mi sed turpis feugiat feugiat. Integer turpis arcu,
pellentesque eget, cursus et, fermentum ut, sapien. </p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>
<!-- end #sidebar1 -->
</p>
</div>
<div id="sidebar2">
<h2>Latest news!</h2>
<p>Slow Food Picnic Dinner &amp; Square Dance at Sherill's Inn</p>
<p>Slow Food Asheville will hold a Slow Food Picnic Dinner and
Square Dance Fundraiser on Saturday, September 20, 5 pm at Sherill's
Inn on Hickory Nut Gap Farm. Some of the best food the region has to
offer will be served meats from Hickory Nut Gap Farm, breads from
West End Bakery, and all kinds of veggie dishes made with Flying Cloud
Farm produce, not to mention homemade apple crisp for dessert! <br />
Things will kick off with drinks and hors d'eouvres. The dancing will
begin at 7:30 pm. The minimum donation is $35; kids under 10 are free.
Only 100 tickets will be sold and must be purchased in advance. Go to
slowfoodasheville.org and click on Events to order. Proceeds will help
Slow Food Asheville send local delegates to the international
conference, Terra Madre. To cut down on waste everyone is asked to
bring plates and forks, and a picnic blanket. For more information
call Cathy, 255-0296.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><a href="towncrier/" target="_blank">Read more!</a></p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<!-- end #sidebar2 --></div>
<div id="mainContent">
<h1> Main Content </h1>
<p>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit.
Praesent aliquam, justo convallis luctus rutrum, erat nulla fermentum
diam, at nonummy quam ante ac quam. Maecenas urna purus, fermentum
id, molestie in, commodo porttitor, felis. Nam blandit quam ut lacus.
Quisque ornare risus quis ligula. Phasellus tristique purus a augue
condimentum adipiscing. Aenean sagittis. Etiam leo pede, rhoncus
venenatis, tristique in, vulputate at, odio. Donec et ipsum et sapien
vehicula nonummy. Suspendisse potenti. </p>
<h2>H2 level heading </h2>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<!-- end #mainContent --></div><div class="clearboth"></div></div>
<div id="footer">
<p>Footer</p>
<!-- end #footer --></div>
<!-- end #container --></div>
</body>
</html>


css

@charset "UTF-8";
body {
margin: 0; /* it's good practice to zero the margin and padding of
the body element to account for differing browser defaults */
padding: 0;
text-align: center; /* this centers the container in IE 5* browsers.
The text is then set to the left aligned default in the #container
selector */
color: #666666;
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt;
line-height: 14pt;
background-color: #323F22;
background-image: url(images/background.jpg);
background-repeat: repeat-x;
background-position: center top;
background-attachment: fixed;
}
a:link {
color: #3F583A;
}
..thrColAbsHdr #container {
position: relative; /* adding position: relative allows you to
position the two sidebars relative to this container */
width: 780px; /* using 20px less than a full 800px width allows for
browser chrome and avoids a horizontal scroll bar */
background: #FFFFFF; /* the auto margins (in conjunction with a
width) center the page */
border: 1px solid #666666;
text-align: left; /* this overrides the text-align: center on the
body element. */
top: 50px;
clear: both;
margin-top: 0;
margin-right: auto;
margin-bottom: 0;
margin-left: auto;
}

/* Tips for absolutely positioned sidebars with header and footer:
1. Absolutely positioned (AP) elements must be given a top and side
value, either right or left. (As a default, if no top value is given,
the AP element will begin directly after the last element in the
source order of the page. This means, if the sidebars are first
element in the #container in the document's source order, they will
appear at the top of the #container even without being given a top
value. However, if they are moved later in the source order for any
reason, they'll need a top value to appear where you desire.
2. Absolutely positioned (AP) elements are taken out of the flow of
the document. This means the elements around them don't know they
exist and don't account for them when taking up their proper space on
the page. Thus, an AP div should only be used as a side column if you
are sure the middle #mainContent div will always contain the most
content. If either sidebar were to contain more content, that sidebar
would run over the bottom of the parent div, and in this case the
footer as well, and the sidebar would not appear to be contained.
3. If the above mentioned requirements are met, absolutely positioned
sidebars can be an easy way to control the source order of the document.
4. If the source order is changed, the top value should be equal to
the height of the header since this will cause the columns to visually
meet the header.
*/
..thrColAbsHdr #header {
height: 60px;
padding: 0 10px 0 20px; /* this padding matches the left alignment
of the elements in the divs that appear beneath it. If an image is
used in the #header instead of text, you may want to remove the
padding. */
background-color: #3F583A;
}
..thrColAbsHdr #header h1 {
margin: 0; /* zeroing the margin of the last element in the #header
div will avoid margin collapse - an unexplainable space between divs.
If the div has a border around it, this is not necessary as that also
avoids the margin collapse */
padding: 10px 0; /* using padding instead of margin will allow you to
keep the element away from the edges of the div */
font-size: 14pt;
color: #FFFFFF;
}
..thrColAbsHdr #sidebar1 { width: 150px; padding: 15px 10px 15px 20px;
float: left; }
..thrColAbsHdr #sidebar2 { width: 160px; padding-top: 15px; padding-
right: 20px; padding-left: 10px; float: right; }
..thrColAbsHdr #mainContent { margin: 0 190px 0 180px; /* the right and
left margins on this div element creates the two outer columns on the
sides of the page. No matter how much content the sidebar divs
contain, the column space will remain. */ padding: 0px 10px 0; /*
remember that padding is the space inside the div box and margin is
the space outside the div box */ background: #FFFFFF; width: 390px;
height: 2000px; }
..thrColAbsHdr #footer {
background-color: #375F77;
margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
}
..thrColAbsHdr #footer p {
margin: 0; /* zeroing the margins of the first element in the footer
will avoid the possibility of margin collapse - a space between divs */
padding: 10px 0; /* padding on this element will create space, just
as the the margin would have, without the margin collapse issue */
font-size: 8pt;
color: #FFFFFF;
}
..fltrt { /* this class can be used to float an element right in your
page. The floated element must precede the element it should be next
to on the page. */
float: right;
margin-left: 8px;
}
..fltlft { /* this class can be used to float an element left in your
page */
float: left;
margin-right: 8px;
}
h1 { font-size: 12pt; font-weight: bold; color: #3F583A; border-bottom-
width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: #3F583A;
margin: 0px; padding: 0px; }
..clearboth { clear: both; height: 0px; }
p { margin: 0px; padding: 0px; }
h2 {
font-size: 10pt;
font-weight: bold;
color: #3F583A;
border-top-width: 1px;
border-top-style: solid;
border-top-color: #3F583A;
}
#subcontainer { height: auto; width: 100%; background: #c8e3fc;
margin: 0px; padding: 20px 0px 0px; }

At 11:12 -0400, 26/9/08, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:
>Thanks Martin....the overflow did the trick, but it's still
>overrunning the footer.

You could stash the footer inside the container and give it a clear:
both like so:
<http://www.simnet.is/klipklap/golive/three-columns/take-two.html>

Then the overflow: auto on the container won't be necessary anymore
because the footer takes care of the clearing.

Cheers Martin

Here's what I have now for testing, using Dave's approach of a sub
container.

http://fairviewcommunity.com/test.php
http://fairviewcommunity.com/test.css

This using the idea of the subcontainer have the color, the middle col
to be white. The footer isn't getting over run, but now I need to get
the white middle column to reach the footer.

:-)

--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

> This using the idea of the subcontainer have the color, the middle col
> to be white. The footer isn't getting over run, but now I need to get
> the white middle column to reach the footer.

Why not use a background image that has the column colors for the whole
container?

Lynne

Yep, that would work but for my learning curve, if I can learn more
about how the columns function and get control of them, I'll be that
much further along... :-)

Lynne Arnold wrote:
>> This using the idea of the subcontainer have the color, the middle col
>> to be white. The footer isn't getting over run, but now I need to get
>> the white middle column to reach the footer.
>>
>
> Why not use a background image that has the column colors for the whole
> container?
>
> Lynne
>
>
>
>


--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

> Yep, that would work but for my learning curve, if I can learn more
> about how the columns function and get control of them, I'll be that
> much further along... :-)

If you figure it out let us know. I didn't think it was possible in CSS to
reliably force the length of a column down to the bottom. Anyone?

Lynne

On this site, I tricked it by using a gradient background image so there
was some color at the top of a side column that fades to white and so no
matter how long the columns, it still looks ok....but, it's a "cheat" of
the real issue....

http://fairview-business.org/category.php
> If you figure it out let us know. I didn't think it was possible in CSS to
> reliably force the length of a column down to the bottom. Anyone?
>
> Lynne
>
>
>
>


--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

At 12:44 -0700, 26/9/08, Lynne Arnold wrote:

>At 15:29 -0400, 26/9/08, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:
>>Yep, that would work but for my learning curve, if I can learn more
>>about how the columns function and get control of them, I'll be
>>that much further along... :-)
>
>If you figure it out let us know. I didn't think it was possible in CSS to
>reliably force the length of a column down to the bottom. Anyone?

No, as as far as I know Lynne's suggestion is the easiest if not
*only* solution.

Cheers Martin

On Sep 26, 2008, at 3:59 PM, Martin Sammtleben wrote:

> At 12:44 -0700, 26/9/08, Lynne Arnold wrote:
>
>> At 15:29 -0400, 26/9/08, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:
>>> Yep, that would work but for my learning curve, if I can learn
>>> more about how the columns function and get control of them, I'll
>>> be that much further along... :-)
>>
>> If you figure it out let us know. I didn't think it was possible in
>> CSS to
>> reliably force the length of a column down to the bottom. Anyone?
>
> No, as as far as I know Lynne's suggestion is the easiest if not
> *only* solution.



If the center column was always longest then no problem, but can you
tell us that you know for sure that the right sidebar will always be
longer? If so I'd work on it, but if I'm not mistaken that column is
data driven and you don't know that will be the case all the time
correct?

Dave Miers wrote:
>
>
>
> If the center column was always longest then no problem, but can you
> tell us that you know for sure that the right sidebar will always be
> longer? If so I'd work on it, but if I'm not mistaken that column is
> data driven and you don't know that will be the case all the time
> correct?
>
>
correct...

--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

At 16:58 -0400, 26/9/08, Dave Miers wrote:
>If the center column was always longest then no problem, but can you
>tell us that you know for sure that the right sidebar will always be
>longer? If so I'd work on it, but if I'm not mistaken that column is
>data driven and you don't know that will be the case all the time
>correct?

I'd like to hear of a solution no matter which column is tallest ;-)

Martin

On Sep 26, 2008, at 4:58 PM, Dave Miers wrote:

>
> On Sep 26, 2008, at 3:59 PM, Martin Sammtleben wrote:
>
>> At 12:44 -0700, 26/9/08, Lynne Arnold wrote:
>>
>>> At 15:29 -0400, 26/9/08, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:
>>>> Yep, that would work but for my learning curve, if I can learn
>>>> more about how the columns function and get control of them, I'll
>>>> be that much further along... :-)
>>>
>>> If you figure it out let us know. I didn't think it was possible
>>> in CSS to
>>> reliably force the length of a column down to the bottom. Anyone?
>>
>> No, as as far as I know Lynne's suggestion is the easiest if not
>> *only* solution.
>
>
>
> If the center column was always longest then no problem, but can you
> tell us that you know for sure that the right sidebar will always be
> longer? If so I'd work on it, but if I'm not mistaken that column is
> data driven and you don't know that will be the case all the time
> correct?

Ya know seriously folks as I look around for 3 column solutions that
are CSS based only my eyes glaze over and I hate to say a swear word,
but in interest of browser support, infinite hacks etc, I come back to
is it worth all that to avoid the "table". By the time you go through
all this I wonder that maybe you have defeated all the advantages of
CSS based layout and a table is not only the simplest solution, but
also the best at least for the 3 columns with different color
backgrounds and a sidebar that is likely to be longer then the main
content. Now in some cases the clients may ask for entirely CSS based
and tableless layout, but I'm thinking that this particular concept
takes this into insanity that isn't worth it. A simple table replacing
the 3 columns would have solved this ages ago a lot more cleanly and
almost no questions about browser support.

Hello All,

I mostly lurk on this list but had to chip in on this ongoing thread
since I've been down this road numerous times in the last 6-12 months
and there are some great resources to get you off to a great start to
do exactly what you are working on.

On Sep 26, 2008, at 1:05 PM, Lynne Arnold wrote:

> Why not use a background image that has the column colors for the
> whole
> container?

> If you figure it out let us know. I didn't think it was possible in
> CSS to
> reliably force the length of a column down to the bottom. Anyone?


On Sep 26, 2008, at 3:59 PM, Martin Sammtleben wrote:

> No, as as far as I know Lynne's suggestion is the easiest if not
> *only* solution.


> I'd like to hear of a solution no matter which column is tallest ;-)

Lynne hit on the currently most reliable and universally accepted
answer to this dilemma, that being you would use a background image
which tiles vertically to create the illusion of multiple vertical
columns of equal length, regardless of the length of content in any
of those columns. Then you scale and position your columns of content
to lay over the top of those columns.

Martin is correct (in my experience anyway) in that this is actually
the easiest and only solution to this issue considering currently
supported CSS standards. Actually I believe this little hurdle will
still exist in CSS3 as well.

The solution you are finding your way to is referred to as "faux
columns". Do a Google search for "faux columns css" and you will find
lots of information that can help. But here is a great resource right
off the bat.

<http://www.code-sucks.com/css%20layouts/faux-css-layouts/>

This page offers 42 different (fixed width) layouts that are all CSS
driven. Among them they contain anywhere from 2 - 4 vertical columns.
Variations include headers and footers and the lack thereof. All of
the CSS and HTML is available right there to download for free (just
click on a layout from the table to see a full size page and get
access to the code). You should be able to take any of these that fit
your needs, adjust some dimensions and drop in your content. Great
resource.

I hope this helps,
Gary

On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:45 PM, Lynne Arnold wrote:

> Also, I've always done CSS that goes from left to right in the
> html. So
> first I would have put the sidebar1 div, then maincontent div and
> then the
> sidebar2 div. What is the advantage to doing it out of order like
> this?

Lynne,

I did not get to see Patrice's page code and it is now moved it
seems, but let me offer one potential answer to your question. Laying
out a page entirely with CSS can give us the opportunity to place
your content into your code in a different order than the way it is
shown in the final browser view.

One reason I have seen people offer for doing exactly that would be
search engine optimization. Some will place the main content block of
their pages in the very first div as written into the actual code and
then position it properly on the displayed page via the CSS. The code
for repeating headers, menus, footers or other secondary content
would follow later in the code flow.

The idea is that the text that comes higher in the page code might
get slightly greater emphasis in the search engines algorithm and by
extension yield better results. I won't venture to speculate on the
actual validity of this theory, but I do know that some developers
will work in this way.

So, that is just one possible reason as to why someone might place
their content in a different order of flow in the code itself vs. the
way it flows in the displayed page.

Gary

On Sep 27, 2008, at 1:09 AM, Gary H Steadman wrote:

>>
>> Also, I've always done CSS that goes from left to right in the
>> html. So
>> first I would have put the sidebar1 div, then maincontent div and
>> then the
>> sidebar2 div. What is the advantage to doing it out of order like
>> this?
>
> Lynne,
>
> I did not get to see Patrice's page code and it is now moved it
> seems, but let me offer one potential answer to your question.
> Laying out a page entirely with CSS can give us the opportunity to
> place your content into your code in a different order than the way
> it is shown in the final browser view.
>
> One reason I have seen people offer for doing exactly that would be
> search engine optimization. Some will place the main content block
> of their pages in the very first div as written into the actual code
> and then position it properly on the displayed page via the CSS. The
> code for repeating headers, menus, footers or other secondary
> content would follow later in the code flow.
>
> The idea is that the text that comes higher in the page code might
> get slightly greater emphasis in the search engines algorithm and by
> extension yield better results. I won't venture to speculate on the
> actual validity of this theory, but I do know that some developers
> will work in this way.
>
> So, that is just one possible reason as to why someone might place
> their content in a different order of flow in the code itself vs.
> the way it flows in the displayed page.

If memory serves me correct I have tried the 3 column thing as in
order and it didn't work out right at least using the method being
used here. In the method being used the sidebars are float first left,
then right, and the main content goes between them with margins to
match the sidebars on both sides of it. The main content column has an
auto width then as well. You could float all 3, but then you would
have to calculate out to the last pixel to get things centered
correctly. The other reason for this type of layout isn't actually
being utilized here, but this type of column setup is actually liquid
and would allow the main content to expand with browser width and the
sidebars remain fixed width. It's not expanding in this situation
because it's contained within a fixed width container.

Gary H Steadman wrote:
>
>
> <http://www.code-sucks.com/css%20layouts/faux-css-layouts/>
>
>
>
> I hope this helps,
> Gary
>
Hi Gary:

Thank you for that link. It certainly is a time saver. I have
implemented one of the css solutions using the faux columns.

Current design in progress: http://fairviewcommunity.com/4coltest.php

Thanks again,

--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

On Sep 27, 2008, at 4:41 PM, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:

>>
>>
>> <http://www.code-sucks.com/css%20layouts/faux-css-layouts/>
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope this helps,
>> Gary
>>
> Hi Gary:
>
> Thank you for that link. It certainly is a time saver. I have
> implemented one of the css solutions using the faux columns.
>
> Current design in progress: http://fairviewcommunity.com/4coltest.php

Well that was different, it looked great while it was loading, then
upon the finish of loading it collapsed partway, killing a lot of the
material on the page. Mac Safari 3 and Firefox 3 identical results.

Which method did you use from the quoted link?

Dave

On Sep 27, 2008, at 1:41 PM, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:
>>
>>
> Hi Gary:
>
> Thank you for that link. It certainly is a time saver. I have
> implemented one of the css solutions using the faux columns.
>
> Current design in progress: http://fairviewcommunity.com/4coltest.php

Very nice design, too. I like the background that the divs float atop.

Doug

>
> Well that was different, it looked great while it was loading, then
> upon the finish of loading it collapsed partway, killing a lot of the
> material on the page. Mac Safari 3 and Firefox 3 identical results.
>
> Which method did you use from the quoted link?
>
> Dave
>
>
I used the 4 col faux for design.

But the collapsing thing was supposed to happen... it's not filled in
yet, but when done it will be accordion spry boxes... I used a similar
idea on this site:

http://naricentralva.org/

The boxes are intended to keep a lot of information hidden until needed.
Since the fairview site is a portal to many areas, I thought it might
work out better than my original 2006 design. Nearly all content is
database driven, so hopefully it will do nicely.



--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

On Sep 27, 2008, at 4:50 PM, Dave Miers wrote:

> Well that was different, it looked great while it was loading, then
> upon the finish of loading it collapsed partway, killing a lot of
> the material on the page. Mac Safari 3 and Firefox 3 identical
> results.


Scratch that reply, I see it's all still there it was just the menu
building under links of interest, which works fine....good job!

Doug Fairchild wrote:
> Very nice design, too. I like the background that the divs float atop.
>
> Doug
>
>
Thanks Doug! :-)
I took that photo on top of Mount Mitchell a couple of weeks ago. I hope
to take another trip up there when the colors turn.

--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

On Sep 27, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:

> Doug Fairchild wrote:
>> Very nice design, too. I like the background that the divs float
>> atop.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>>
> Thanks Doug! :-)
> I took that photo on top of Mount Mitchell a couple of weeks ago. I
> hope to take another trip up there when the colors turn.
>
> --
> Patrice Olivier-Wilson

Back in the day, there was a NC travel campaign that used the catch
phrase (paraphrasing), "Living in NC is like living in a poem." Now
you see why. I'm close enough (in SC) to get into a little poetry,
every now and then. :-)

Jerry

On Sep 27, 2008, at 4:59 PM, Patrice Olivier-Wilson wrote:

> I used the 4 col faux for design.
>
> But the collapsing thing was supposed to happen... it's not filled
> in yet, but when done it will be accordion spry boxes... I used a
> similar idea on this site:
>
> http://naricentralva.org/
>
> The boxes are intended to keep a lot of information hidden until
> needed. Since the fairview site is a portal to many areas, I thought
> it might work out better than my original 2006 design. Nearly all
> content is database driven, so hopefully it will do nicely.


Just took a peak this morning at your progress and noted the new MM
menu on top that your working on and got to wondering about the spry
accordian boxes. I've never done either yet, but I've heard that you
can do those as well in MM2. Could you comment to that and the
advantages disadvantages if indeed it could have been done in MM. I
also noted the back image for the columns stops 5 pixels shy of the
footer. I wasn't sure if that was by intent or not. I know you used a
5 pixel margin there instead of a padding value which is why the gap
exists.

Dave Miers wrote:
>
>
> Just took a peak this morning at your progress and noted the new MM
> menu on top that your working on and got to wondering about the spry
> accordian boxes. I've never done either yet, but I've heard that you
> can do those as well in MM2. Could you comment to that and the
> advantages disadvantages if indeed it could have been done in MM. I
> also noted the back image for the columns stops 5 pixels shy of the
> footer. I wasn't sure if that was by intent or not. I know you used a
> 5 pixel margin there instead of a padding value which is why the gap
> exists.
>
Good morning:

I have stripped out my testing files, so now working on ones that will
be live, so here's an update:

http://fairviewcommunity.com/2008index.php
http://fairviewcommunity.com/2008happenings.php

I will be using a separate design for the newspaper section of the site,
yet to be determined. I want that to look different than the main pages.

I am using MM2 for the menu. I am using DW for the accordion boxes on
the 2008index.php.

However, if I'm understanding your question, the MM2 I used on another
site does the open accordion feature. Well, at least I think that is
what it is doing.

http://grandedecor.com/interior-design-tips.php

Click on the second menu item, Interior Design to see it open the menu.

And thanks for the 5 pixel gap advice. I kept fiddlin' with that but
couldn't find where it was. :-)



--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com

Dave Miers wrote:
>
>
another update... fiddlin' with this approach for the newspaper side of
things


http://fairviewcommunity.com/2008towncrier/2008frontpage.php

still in progress.. but thinking that this page serves as an entrance to
base page to contain all the news...

http://fairviewcommunity.com/2008towncrier/crierbase.php

as I said, still fiddlin'... :-)



--
Patrice Olivier-Wilson
888-385-7217
http://biz-comm.com